[MD] Problems with Intellectual control of Society

[X Acto]

[Ron] prev:
This ought to answer Andres questions about why Pirsig doesent just settle some things here on the discuss, I mean look what happened in Daves case. It should go to show, that any sort of Papal Bull would create more conflict than settle it

[Arlo]
Well, I excuse Pirsig only partially. You can't build a house with two pieces of wood. He really should articulate his views, or clarify them, more than he does, in my humble opinion. I have no qualm arguing against him, or for him, but I'd really like to know precisely when I am doing each of things. All bodies of though, as someone mentioned about "pragmatism", have many sub-schools that revolve around them, and the MOQ will be/should be no different. This is not about maintaining an orthodoxy, its about clarity so that progression can be made without second guessing. And sometimes that progression is into competing views, or "heresies" as it were.

Ron:
That is exactly my point, but with the subjectmatter, this process in it self, it makes
any definite structure a bit ambiguos, you can't build a house with two boards but you can
create an understanding about finding the best ways in which to build "a" house not any
house in particular, thats what makes this so difficult a venture. It cultures the exploration
of possibilites of house building. Any static example, would be taken up as THE way to
build houses, which is missing the point.

[Ron] prev:
To me, it has exposed a brand of rigid elitism held here on this forum.

[Arlo]
I'm not entirely sure I understand your point. I see it more as a "rigid anti-elitism". We are so determined not to allow anyone to be an authoritative voice, we shout down everyone, even those endorsed by the very man whose ideas we are here discussing.

Ron:
AH,that is my point, anti-elitism is a brand of elitism, we are so entrenched
in our own ideas about the MoQ that we fail to get the main point of it that.
Rigid rejection is the problem, it blinds.
The idea being cultivated is reducing prejudicial value distinctions in our 
experience, ones that blind us to making "Quality" value judgements.

Arlo:
 See, I have no problem with "authority" as representing one view, because that makes it clear when and where I disassociate myself with said authority. I know who the people are, for example, who are the accurate authoritative voices for Peirce, but that helps me determine when and where I disagree with his ideas. God forbid, for example, the world thinks that Ant or DMB understand Pirsig and can speak more accurately than we can about what the man meant. Personally, I am fine with that. So when I formulate my own "heresy" about his exclusionary limitations of the social and intellectual levels to "humans", I know precisely where I must draw that line.

Ron:
I can see having this level of authoritative certainty in relation to Pirsigs meaning can be very
useful and I agree with you but one can't expect to have everyone value it in that way, because
no one ever changes their own prejudices unless they are open to it. No matter what you or I,
Anthony or Dave , or even Bob for that matter say or write, unless the decision is made to
be open to new ideas, authoritative or not, they are not going to see the big picture in that way.
As a useful tool to develop ones own system of value, of ones own attitude of inquirey.
In this way authoritative mandates, even Quality ones, go against the grain of what Bob is
trying to accomplish. Think for thy self. Radical inquirey. Openess of thought.

And if people want to be small rigid assholes about it, ... thats on them

perhaps at some point, at some time, they will come to a similar conclusion because
seeing outside of our own rigid values is most difficult and a constant struggle.
Those habits are so ingrained it is often impossile to realize they are even there.
Much less take them in consideration. My struggle with PTSD is very similar
one of identifying habitual static value triggers and re-associating them.




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