[MD] irony and socrates

Ian Glendinning ian.glendinning at gmail.com
Fri Oct 16 01:58:25 PDT 2009 

OK, Bo so for you

ALL intellectual patterns and better than social patterns.
ALL intellectual patterns are S/O based.

So ANY S/O pattern is better than ANY Social PoV in your world ?
Are there ANY patterns anywhere that are better than S/O ?

(Please don't guess what I know, just answer the questions.)
Ian

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:24 AM,  <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
> Ian
>
> 15 Oct.
>
>> Bo, you still didn't answer any of my questions directly. (The first
>> two were closed - yes/no) Anyway you then offered "What you "know" is
>> that a subject/object metaphysics has invaded an otherwise neutral
>> innocent container called "intellect" and that SOM can be removed and
>> replaced by the MOQ. That's the way you understand it ...no?"
>
>> Hell no - how dare you - how crass an idiot do you accuse me of being.
>> These are the insults I am talking about. Insults against the idea
>> that we were ever having an intelligent conversation.
>
> Calm down Ian. The issue is and remains if the intellectual level is
> SOM - all of it, every last bit - or if SOM is one intellectual pattern and
> the MOQ another intellectual pattern. Can I have YOUR answer
> please?
>
>> Now here's a clue - look at the questions I actually asked.
>> Need a further clue ? My answers to #1 and #2 are No and No.
>> Please answer them and stop hurling insults.
>
> # 1. "Are all social PoV's in need of debunking"
>
> You must be way off moqwise if your answer is "NO". Each level's
> purpose is to "debunk" - in the sense of controlling -  the lower level.
>
> # 2. "Are all intellectual PoV's free of social prejudices"
>
> This is plain "NO".
>
>> Then we can move on to #3 - and the massive complex interaction between
>> SoMism and MoQism in patterns ranging across the social and
>> intellectual levels. The footnotes to Plato.
>
> # 3  "How can we tell a good intellectual PoV from an inferior social
> PoV?"  I answered that the moral code between society and the
> intellect is crystal clear. Where "moqism" enters I don't know.
>
>> Of course it's the "intellectual framework" that's wrong - I've stated
>> that 5 or 6 times now (to agree with you) in this thread.
>
> This is identical to my initial question above. If (you mean that)
> intellect's framework is S/O and S/O alone. Not a mind  that can turn
> DQ/SQ at short notice.
>
> Bodvar
>
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>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:47 AM,  <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
>> > For Ian
>> >
>> > 14 Oct.:
>> >
>> >> Hi Bo, leave off the insults I asked several simple open questions,
>> >> which you ignored. You see your intelocutors as ensnared in
>> >> GOF-Intellect's tentacles. I just see you in that bind.
>> >
>> > And I answered them  one by one, without a trace of insults. They
>> > were:
>> >
>> > #1:  Are all social PoV's in need of debunking
>> >
>> > #2: Are all intellectual PoV's free of social prejudices
>> >
>> > # 3  How can we tell a good / intellectual PoV from an inferior /
>> >        social PoV ?
>> >
>> > # 4 (How do we do any of that if intellect = SOM ?)
>> >
>> > But if my "crime" is that all questions requires the SOL
>> > interpretation to be properly answered, what can I do?
>> >
>> >> The Pirsig quotes are recognized and clear ... even the one you
>> >> double quote / highlight thus :
>> >
>> >    "It is the intellectual framework with which one deals with the
>> >  data that is at fault. The fault is within subject-object
>> >  metaphysics itself."
>> >
>> >> We know this.
>> >
>> > What you "know" is that a subject/object metaphysics has invaded an
>> > otherwise neutral innocent container called "intellect" and that SOM
>> > can be removed and replaced by the MOQ. That's the way you
>> > understand it ...no?  But Pirsig says "It is the intellectual
>> > framework ... that is at fault"
>> >
>> >> It's the starting point for a discussion. It tell us the problem
>> >> clearly enough, but it doesn't tell us any solution. ie That GOF
>> >> SOMist kind of intellect framework is at fault; what does a better
>> >> / MOQish "intellect" look like?
>> >
>> > "A better MOQish intellect" means the said  "container--intellect"
>> > filled by the MOQ  ... no?   The 4th. level is a sub-set of the MOQ,
>> > bu no twist and bend of logic can this contain the MOQ. Study the
>> > "container" passage in LILA!
>> >
>> >> You don't even have to call it intellect if you want to reserve
>> >> that term for the GOF mental / SOMist kind.
>> >
>> > ??????????????
>> >
>> > Bo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> (Clearly it is more than the mental - how often do we have to agree
>> >> that ?) Regards Ian
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 4:55 PM,  <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
>> >> > For Ron
>> >> >
>> >> > 12 Oct.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ian to Bo:
>> >> >> > Some hope : You suggested. "Every single intellectual pattern
>> >> >> > is about debunking the social [PoV's]." Nice idea. A
>> >> >> > hierarchical relationship of Intellect over Social - which is
>> >> >> > where we started. But, so many questions. Are all social PoV's
>> >> >> > in need of debunking ? Are all intellectual PoV's free of
>> >> >> > social prejudices ? How can we tell a good / intellectual PoV
>> >> >> > from an inferior / social PoV ? (How do we do any of that if
>> >> >> > intellect = SOM ?)
>> >> >
>> >> > Ron:
>> >> >> Great questions Ian, How IS any of that done if intellect equals
>> >> >> SOM. SOM equalling intellect is already the universaly agreed
>> >> >> apon assumption.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes I know that you all regard SOM as ONE intellectual pattern,
>> >> > but the point is that for the MOQ to make sense its intellectual
>> >> > level has to be SOM. Regrettably I don't take notes of all
>> >> > indications of this interpretation in Pirsig's writings, but the
>> >> > latest was
>> >> >
>> >> >    Pirsig in LILA: "There is the materialist school that says
>> >> > reality    is all matter, which creates mind. There is the
>> >> > idealist school    that says it is all mind, which creates matter
>> >> > [....]  It is the    intellectual framework with which one deals
>> >> > with the data that    is at fault. The fault is within
>> >> > subject-object metaphysics itself.
>> >> >
>> >> > "It is the intellectual framework with which one deals with the
>> >> > data that is at fault. The fault is within subject-object
>> >> > metaphysics itself.
>> >> >
>> >> > I can of course not force you don't see the obvious, intellect's
>> >> > tentacles are tough and the toughest one is the term "intellect"
>> >> > that indicates mental and - consequently - intellectual patterns
>> >> > as ideas or thoughts - of which the MOQ is one - but as said: The
>> >> > subject/object distinction (in all its forms) is abolished,
>> >> > "intellectual patterns" aren't mental patterns but the value of
>> >> > the MENTAL/CORPOREAL distinction.
>> >> >
>> >> > But now I understand that you neither care about Pirsig's
>> >> > writings nor my interpretations of these writings. So good-bye to
>> >> > you.
>> >> >
>> >> > Bodvar
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
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