[MD] Some historical perspective

Sat Oct 24 15:43:31 PDT 2009

According to Graves, Hesiod (c. 700 BC) relates that Athena 
was a parthenogenous daughter of Metis, wisdom or knowledge,
 a Titan who ruled the fourth day and the planet Mercury. 
Other variants relate that although Metis was of an earlier 
generation of the Titans, Zeus became her consort when his 
cult gained dominance. In order to avoid a prophecy made when 
that change occurred, that any offspring of his union with 
Metis would be greater than he, Zeus swallowed Metis to prevent 
her from having offspring, but she already was pregnant with Athena. 
Metis gave birth to Athena and nurtured her inside Zeus until 
Athena burst forth from his forehead fully armed with weapons 
given by her mother.

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Sat, October 24, 2009 9:31:46 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Some historical perspective

Ron,

Athena is a male apparition.  Born out of her father's forehead rather than
her mother's womb???  Give me a break!!!  Mythos and logos are both a
collection of static patterns of value.  Story.  Games.  Dance.  

(Any perceived hostility is not directed towards you, Ron.  A cult to Athena
irks me.)  

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 9:11 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Some historical perspective

Matt,

The interesting thing about the Sophists, is , I think a development out of
the cult
of Athena, patron goddess of Athens. I'm not sure, I'd have to look it up,
but
somehow Athena is tied to Orpheus.. now the cult of Athena is said to have 
been imported from the minoans.
The point is, the mythos evolves as the culture evolves, one thing thats
appearent
in the phaedrus is how Plato still employs mythos, and it seems to me, see's
mythos as imortant as logos in the philo of sophia.
-Ron

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Kundert <pirsigaffliction at hotmail.com>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Fri, October 23, 2009 11:29:52 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Some historical perspective

The two parts you missed, Squonk, were partly because I was carrying on an
argument in my head with DMB, and sort of Pirsig.  The contention has
occasionally been, so I understand it, that the Sophists were philosophical
mystics.  DMB knows a bit about Orphism, but there's been something like a
binding together of the Sophists and Orphic mysticism in his presentation of
the material, a presentation aided by Pirsig making something like that
slide.  I've never encountered DMB on this terrain, specifically, so I'm not
sure how he'd chew it.

The slide Pirsig makes is something like this: Pirsig makes three claims in
ZMM--1) Plato stole his Good from the Sophists, 2) Plato made rhetoric bow
down to dialectic, and 3) Aristotle made the Good bow down to the Truth. 
The slide is essentially in associating too closely rhetoric and this notion
of "Good".  That makes it easier to call the Sophists mystics, when I don't
think they were--in their _philosophy_.  They may have participated in
Orphic religion like many others, or in all kinds of the cults crawling all
over Athens at the time (if I'm not mistaken on that point).  Orphism was a
usurper from the East to the Greeks Homeric past.  The Sophists, in their
capacity _as Sophists_, however, I don't think ever got to a point of
sophistication (or at least uniformity) about religion or mysticism.

I don't know, maybe that's a dud explanation.  The main opaque claim missed
was just the claim that Aristotle didn't see that if dialectic is for
destroying, then the only thing that can build is rhetoric.  Aristotle
thought, like Plato, that rhetoric was a _low_ thing, for the masses, not
the enlightened few who practiced something else (Plato: dialectic,
Aristotle: theoria).

> Bloody hell, I've actually understood a contribution of your Matt.

Yeah, well, DMB had a much easier time, too, after going back to school.

Take it easy,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default-ga.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID2472
7::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/