[MD] The 4th. level's two interpretations. Part 1

[markhsmit]

Hi Bo, Ian, Matt, All,

I'm glad we are only on Part I.  It's enough to chew on for the
time being.

Just for the purposes of broadening the discussion, I would like
to bring in the various levels from a purely descriptive, physical
view, with some dynamic interplay thrown in.

This would be a simplistic way of describing them (please correct
me where I err):

Level 1 Inorganic
Particles such as stone interacting through principles of physics
such as the described forces (weak, strong, electromagnetic, gravity)
This interaction, or communication, is thought to be through particle
exchange.  There is a higher level of communication through other
means such as diffusion, fusion, erosion etc.

Level 2 Biological
The biological contains all the communication of Level 1 plus, the
interaction through large molecular structures ranging from the
biochemical (proteins etc.) up to the formation of large bodies
(species etc)

Level 3 Social
The social contains all the communication of level 2 plus the
dynamic interchange between living beings.

Level 4 Intellectual
The intellectual level contains all the communication of level 3 plus
the specific interaction of humans within and between one another.

Needless to say, this break down has its platypuses.

So, cumulative communication is represented in each level.   It could
be said that each level contains it's own consciousness.   Each level
is unaware of the consciousness occurring at other levels.  As individuals,
we are aware of level 2.  Social consciousness is unfelt by us, but we
can tell that it does form a consciousness by observing that it does
have behavior.  What it is actually thinking can only be roughly
deduced.

Now, Level 4 is where I have trouble with this simple breakdown.
By the system I have set down, Level 4 must be a conglomeration 
of level 3.  However there are not distinct social levels that get
together to form level 4 that I can tell.  Perhaps the sum total
of societies of planet earth form level 4 in a kind of Gaia way.
Another possibility is that level 4 is not related to the other levels,
and exists on its own, as a kind of ghost.

Using this simple analysis, I would have to say that levels 3 and 4 are the
same level.  In fact, level 4 may be closer to level 2.

Mark

On Oct 27, 2009, at 11:38:37 PM, "Ian Glendinning" <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
From:   "Ian Glendinning" <ian.glendinning at gmail.com>
Subject:    Re: [MD] The 4th. level's two interpretations. Part 1
Date:   October 27, 2009 11:38:37 PM PDT
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Bo, Glad to see Matt and Mark responding to your point.

(Yet again baffled why you start with an attack - "Can't you
understand that ...")
But anyway you had said of the Intellectal Level ...

1) = SOM
or
2) = what SOM means by "intellect", namely the mental compartment
called "mind" where concepts - ideas - thoughts .. are formulated and
stored.

As per the replies already - of course those are not the only options
- but you casting the question so succinctly makes the error very
clear. The most obvious omission (on purely logical grounds) is ...
the Intellectual Level ..

3) = what MoQ means by "intellectual". Why on earth would anyone
construct a new metaphysics with the same definitions of intellect as
existing metaphysics - the definition of a waste of a lifetime, surely
?

As Mark says focusing on the mind/mental angle is not helpful in
distinguishing intellect - clearly no social patterns would exist
without mental / mind activities either. You effectively admit this
when you say intellect is BOTH Spov and Ipov, or that S&I are
"subjects" whereas Physical & Biological are "objects" - which is
clearly primarily a SOMist view.

Your SOL seems to be simply casting the problem in stone, rather than
providing any useful solution to real socio-intellectual problems and
patterns.
Regards
Ian
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/