[MD] The 4th. level's two interpretations. Part 2

[MarshaV]

Squonk:
Some of them do, but not all of them do.
There are intellectual patterns that are neither subjects or objects: ‘Democracy’ is neither a subject or an object. Democracy may be regarded in ‘objective’ terms, but the concept of Democracy itself is not an object.

You can not place Democracy under a microscope.
Democracy is not an imitated pattern of social value.
Democracy is a symbolic abstraction, that is to say, a pattern of intellectual value.

Marsha:
I do believe manipulation is a requirement.   Explain what democracy stands for and how is it manipulated?????????  I do believe manipulation is a requirement.            



Marsha before:
The fourth-level, the Intellectual (som) Level, grew out of the third-level, the Social Level.

Squonk:
This statement relies upon the fallacious belief that intellectual values do not include subjects or objects.

Marsha:
Huh?  Intellectual static patterns of value bifurcate into a formalized subject and object, so I do not understand your above sentence.  Fallacious?  What are you applying the word fallacious to?


Marsha before:
My point was that the MoQ is an intellectual pattern that explains, as best an intellectual pattern can, the Quality Level, which has gone beyond, beyond, beyond it.


Squonk:
There is no such thing as ‘the Quality level’ in the moq.

Marsha:
But I am saying that for clarifying purposes, there should be Quality Level.  On this fact, I agree with Bo. The difference between the intellectual s/o understanding of the fourth level and the MoQ's Quality understanding is so great that it warrants a new emerging level.  And RMP's objection was not a forceful declaration.  


Marsha before:
Niels "Bohr says, "We are suspended in language," the Metaphysics of Quality completely agrees." (SODV) That is because our language has been built with a view of reality as being subject/object oriented.

Squonk:
The moq says that language can be either:
1. Imitated, in which case it is social, or
2. Abstracted, in which case it is intellectual.
Therefore, we may be suspended in two distinct realms of linguistic functions: the social or the intellectual.


Marsha:
I doubt that Niels Bohr was talking about gossiping with his neighbor, or brushing his teeth. As I have explained my point-of-view before, the subject/object language in the social level is unconscious, while in the Intellectual Level the subject/object split is formalized into an aspect of reality and participates in the manipulation of the symbol.


Squonk:
Our Intellectual language repertoire is larger than reference to subjects and objects.
IMHO it can therefore accomodate both S/O metaphysics and a metaphysics based upon a non-dualistic approach, i.e. the moq.

Marsha:
The Intellectual patterns used in explaining the MoQ participate in objectifying and manipulating the abstract concepts being explained.