[MD] The relativity of the MoQ

[plattholden at gmail.com]

On 4 Sep 2009 at 22:35, Andre Broersen wrote:

> Platt to Andre:
> You've explained what you believe to be the difference between today's One
> and an improved, harmonious One -- namely that more people need to realize a
> richer One through enlightenment. How that is to be achieved, however,
> remains a mystery. Only "various means" are suggested. I hope the "varioua
> means" doesn't include speeches by professors, priests or politicians to a
> captive audience of school children.
> 
> Andre:
> Sorry Platt, but you are once again showing yourself for what you really
> stand for.

Individual liberty. Yes. I assume you stand for the same so that, as you 
put it, one is "able/allowed to express one's dharma.". 

> Platt:
> [Platt]
> Sounds like a pipe dream to me and to Pirsig: "The ideal of a
> harmonious society in which everyone without coercion cooperates
> happily with everyone else for the mutual good of all is a devastating
> fiction." (Lila, 24)
> 
> Andre:
> Pirsig's motivation to write a metaphysics of Quality was in the hope that
> it would improve the world a little bit. He made suggestions. Hope
> presupposes DQ in some ways. You, my dear Platt do not even want to
> contemplate such hope.

Pirsig suggested free markets were more open to DQ than socialism. So 
my hope is for fewer "static" government regulations and controls. Do 
you agree?


> Platt:
> If the free market is ultimately destructive and wasteful, what system of
> production and distribution of goods and services would you
> recommend?
> 
> Andre:
> A system driven by quality.

How do you propose to create such a system other than by assuring 
freedom for individuals to make quality decisions as Pirsig's suggested?.

> PLatt:
> While I appreciate your response, Andre, I find it long on dreams and
> short on specifics of how your dreams are to be accomplished. For
> instance, would you eliminate private property, prevent individual
> inheritances, abolish corporations, increase taxes on the rich,
> redistribute wealth, favor world government?
> 
> Andre:
> '...long on dreams...' yea, that's the big problem with people who
> desparately cling to static patterns...and are willing to fight to the death
> of preserving them.( I am referring of course to those you mention) to which
> Pirsig simply replies that a system that desparately shuts out change, shuts
> out a challenge to its own static patterns, shuts out Dynamic quality as a
> means of improving or replacing those static patterns is doomed to
> degenerate and die.

All well and good, but what specifically would you change to bring about 
the improvements you hope for? 

> Have you ever considered that Obama could be an example of the brujo???

No more than you have considered that Sarah Palin to be an example of 
the brujo.

> Platt:
> I'm getting the impression from what you say that we should all live like
> Buddhist monks. I look forward to your correcting me. Thanks.
> 
> Andre:
> Not quite. The monkhood is not for everybody. I think that a monk is a
> special type of artist in the same way that a painter or musician or
> carpenter or misfit or mother or teacher or anyone in any profession or
> trade or variation thereof and those that fall outside of these 'boxes' is
> an artist. It is in my world but obviously not in yours.
> 
> I do suggest you read the book Pirsig himself recommended by Steve Hagen:
> Buddhism Plain and Simple.
> 
> To understand the MoQ you have to read between the lines...the statics
> floating in the dynamic. The dynamic is what counts, not what is written...
> what is experienced,... not the statics but  the dynamics.
> 
> It is only the dynamic that can fuse, amalgamate, resolve, make whole,  that
> which is broken. Harmony...One.
> 
> And you are concerned about private property, corporations, inheritances,
> wealth. taxes, redistribution, health, your job, the consumer index, the
> stock exchange, the fucking state of Alabama???
> Platt!!! What are you doing with the MoQ? Justifying the shit little things
> you mention in this post (by selectively quoting Pirsig) or are you willing
> to change your ideas and practice. NO, I WILL STICK TO MA GUNS BOY!!! Stick
> to all those things I hold dear:..guns, private property, whites, jesus, no
> taxes, no inhibitions ( except those forbidden by the Lord but I'll do them
> anyways) ... .
> 
> Really PLatt, I do not care... but this is a philosophical forum. You
> constantly come up with political crap.

Politics is based on philosophy. You will notice Pirsig had no problem 
discussing politics in his books. What you call "crap" is simply your 
apparent unwillingness to address how to create a moral (quality) 
society that will encourage individual openness to DQ, to encourage 
individual "artists" if you will. If your answer is to read a book, I fear your 
hopes for the future will always just remain pipe dreams.  

Regards,
Platt