[MD] The relativity of the MoQ

[MarshaV]

Greetings,

I am an introverted, anarchist (the peace-loving kind) by nature so the idea
of 'authority' and 'peer pressure' makes me extremely uncomfortable, but
that's just me.  There are times, though, that a 'You're doing fine.' would
be a boon.  -  Agree too that realizing one's social/intellectual/SOM
conditioning goes a long way towards enlightenment, but I also think
meditation is really important to give one first-hand, reinforcing
experiences.  


Marsha
 
 



-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of John Carl
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 12:56 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ

Arlo, Marsha and any-all as always,
The process of enlightenment in the form of a teaching is a fascinating
topic.  On my thread about DQ University and Metaphysics 101, I imagine a
teacher and a circle of students reading ZAMM and guiding each other along
this path, using the natural forces of peer pressure and respect for
authority in a regularized way that directs the seeker along the right path
towards enlightenment.

And I don't see "enlightenment" as any real big deal with people learning
how to levitate or break boards with their heads, but the simple state of
realization of one's social/intellectual conditioning and freedom from SOM.


Isn't that a realizable goal?  Isn't that an attainable future?

My main point these days, community process, is that this goal is more
easily reached through a collaborative and communal process of specific
structure, rather than on an individual, good luck to ya, hope you're
brilliant, catch as catch can, trust in individual efforts.



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Arlo Bensinger <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:

> [Marsha]
> But I would like to know what you think too. What is the message here?
>
> [Arlo]
> I would say the message is "you can't have one without the other". Pirsig
> has described his books as "the path to enlightenment" (ZMM) and "the path
> back" (LILA), and I think that any attempt to isolate or even dismiss one
as
> being "unnecessary" or "unimportant" is very problematic. Trying to apply
> LILA without the understanding (or "enlightenment", as Pirsig calls it) of
> ZMM is like trying to heal a gunshot wound by covering it with a band-aid;
> it does not address the root problem.
>
>

John]

Right.  Teaching as a process.  The problem always comes in when a teacher
describes their process, and their students memorize the teacher's path and
then assume the same results.  "Licking the Buddha's Spit" as it's
poetically termed.

Spittin' on the Buddha, is what I call it.

Arlo]

Do I think that simply reading ZMM induces "enlightenment"? While I suppose
> it *can*, my guess is that its not so machinistically causal. In ZMM, he
> describes *his* path to enlightenment, and walking that path alongside him
> may certainly guide others to the same. But like Pirsig later describes
> about his peyote experience in LILA, one has to be *open* to
enlightenment,
> if one merely walks along blinded by preconceived prejudices, expectations
> and whatnot, one will likely walk away feeling "enlightened" without
really
> becoming so.
>
>
John]

right


Arlo]

There is an evident historical danger to seeing the inscribed tablets of
> prophets, the words handed down to us by those who have achieved
> enlightenment, in the misunderstanding and reification of these "words" as
> containing the "meaning".


John]

Is there a functional difference between "reificiation" and
"objectification"?  I'm still slowly working my way through my final
vocabulary.  But that thing you are talking about, I'm used to thinking of
as "idolatry" or "mistaking the map for the territory".  And it seems to me
that it's prevalence in society and on this list is a result of an
educational system that teaches information rather than skills.  Maybe.

Maybe the system just has to work with the populace at hand and doesn't have
that much choice.  It's hard for an outsider to discern.

Arlo]

On a much larger scale, it harkens towards the "spirituality/religion"
> split, one being the pursuit of enlightenment, the other being the reified
> words of others who have achieved enlightenment. When we let the latter
> forgo the former, we are in for a world of trouble, not only in having a
> "cult-like" deification of another's words, but (as I've suggested) in not
> understanding the meaning or importance of the words in front of us.
>
> Or, if you don't "get" ZMM, you are going to understand LILA from a S/O
> perspective that renders the framework of LILA not only erroneous, but
> dangerous, because "applying the MOQ" from that vantage point is, as I
> suggested, applying a band-aid to a gunshot wound. You have to dig deep to
> find that bullet. Then extract it. Then, and only then, can you apply
> dressing to the wound.
>
> That's my take, anyway.


John]

Well best of all is to not get shot in the first place!  Grab 'em young, I
say.  Or "raise up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he
will not depart from it." as the bible says.

But yup, I agree with all your points.



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