[MD] The relativity of the MoQ

Tue Sep 8 11:36:52 PDT 2009

Ron,

My point-of-view is different than yours.  And that you disagree with me
matters little.

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 2:13 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ

not wrong or right

half and full circle

incomplete and complete

it's what those words meant

dance around them  any way you like

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:09:04 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ

Greetings,

I do not buy the 180-wrong-way/360-right-way.  I don't think you try to do
it _for_ yourself, but for some _by_ yourself.  There are many paths.  Chop
wood, carry water suits my way of thinking, because it doesn't take more
than one person to chop the wood or carry the water.  While I appreciate
helping each other, I'm totally against line-dancing.    

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:46 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ

John, Marsha,

When Arlo stated:
"I would say the message is "you can't have one without the other". Pirsig
has described his books as "the path to enlightenment" (ZMM) and "the path
back" (LILA), and I think that any attempt to isolate or even dismiss one as
being "unnecessary" or "unimportant" is very problematic. Trying to apply
LILA without the understanding (or "enlightenment", as Pirsig calls it) of
ZMM is like trying to heal a gunshot wound by covering it with a band-aid;
it does not address the root problem."

Which means that the path to enlightenment is the path back. The Chinease
venerate the circle.
One practices Zen, then one forgets it. I think Pirsig quoted a Zen master
as saying this
"Zen is like soap, first you wash with it, then you wash it off" 

before enlightenment
chop wood, carry water

after enlightenment
chop wood, carry water

that being said, that by only concerning
ourselves with the path to enlightenment,
we only realize half the journey.

----- Original Message ----
From: John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 1:21:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:55 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> Greetings Arlo,

> . -  I still have no idea where Andre's "slightly worried" is
> directed, especially as it was in response to a post I sent.

Well I think I know.  I was just reading a
book<http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=6735>about Zen
and I don't have it with me or I'd quote you the passage, but
basically, after all this discipline, effort, training and work, the
Enlightened One finds he has gotten absolutely nowhere!

Andre, probably, if he's at all like me, looks at this equation and thinks,
"can I just take a short-cut or something?"

And I say, YES!  Go ahead Andre  It's your path, you do what you want.

>  Do you have
> any idea?  180-degree Zen and 360-degree Zen seems to be some kind of
> abstract, symbolic Zen language.

I'd say 180 zen is for those going in the wrong direction and 360 is for
those who are basically headed in the right direction, but want smoother
circles in their life.  But I'm more of an up-and-down kinda guy myself.
The spinning circles aren't as much fun as roller coasters, but they all go
in a circle of some kind so... its pretty inescapable eh?

Do you think one needs to join a Zen
> community, to 'get it'?  I might have thought so at one time, but I do not
> anymore.
>
>
Well traditionally speaking, Zen has always passed through a community, a
school.  All of its classic literature is compiled and passed along as a
communal effort, even though the effort of writing is always a solitary
activity, the writer is composing for a reader in his imagination or why
even bother?

John the butter-inner
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