[MD] The relativity of the MoQ

[Andre Broersen]

Marsha to Andre:
A sip is a sip. I know nothing of enlightenment,

Since Andre thought it relevant, I am interested in an explanation of his
concerns and response to my post....

Andre:

Hi Marsha, Arlo, John, Ron and All. Thank you all for responding in such an
enlightened way to my enquiry into the Zen 180/360 stuff and my expressed
concern about this.
My concern was indeed, as Arlo suggested, based on the notion of: can the
MoQ be understood without being 'enlightened'?
And I must admit that I have this rather exalted idea about someone who is
enlightened/awake... probably because it is associated with 'mysticism'/
oriental philosophy etc etc.in which I am no expert and because my own mind
is such a clutter of mumbo jumbo it seems an impossible hurdle to overcome.

Your responses have appeased me somewhat, taken the sting out of the thing
so to speak. However, I have done a little digging and found this passage in
McWatt's PhD:
'As a development of Zen Buddhism it is critical that the MoQ can be
perceived as reflecting a circle of enlightenment found in Buddhist thought
where an adherent ( such as a young monk) begins at the world of form
(typically perceived, at this juncture dualistically, as in SOM) and
proceeds to an understanding of 'formlessness' (termed Dynamic Quality by
Pirsig) to obtain 180 degrees enlightenment.
The student then returns with this new knowledge into 'the world of form' to
achieve full (or 360 degrees) enlightenment or Buddhahood (in which Dynamic
Quality is perceived via the static quality patterns). McWatt, PhD p 44.

Because of the overpowering nature of 'form' (afterall we are raised and
educated into experiencing  this as a  S/O world) it seems to me that some
'training of the mind' can be usefull to become 'receptive to' experiencing
formlessness (unmuddling/ unclogging my mind). And I mean deliberately and
consciously opening oneself.
Meditation is one such 'training' I suppose and certainly getting your nose
rubbed in on this forum (i.e to think MoQ and not SOM) is another good way,
apart from cycle maintenance, cooking, doing the dishes, painting, working,
living, dying etc.etc etc.

What I am suggesting is that it not easy to make the switch from SOM to MoQ,
well for me anyway.

Thank you folks, and Marsha; thanks for the Ingram hint.

Andre