[MD] Uncertainty

[KAYE PALM-LEIS]

Marsha, Ham, Platt, Bo and the Gang,

Marsha: "As far as what is beyond all patterns, DQ or Ultimate
Reality?  I am quite
comfortable with indivisible, undefinable and unknowable, and the
possibility of the creation of a better pattern always available."

Mati: On the "Reality Train" I imagine you are in the locomotive with
your hair flowing in the wind, near to he cutting edge of reality. For
myself I prefer the dinning car with white table cloths, a good cup of
coffee and watch the scenery go by, lost in my thoughts.  You go
girl." :-)

Platt.
> I would simply add that the reason we see the world from a subjective
> perspective and don't feel its imprisonment is our overwhelming instinct
> to survive, reaching all the way back to this first squirming amoeba and
> thus a force as powerful as gravity. So reality revolves around "I," the
> subject. "To see the world in a grain of sand and eternity in a wildflower"
> is a wonderful thought, but it won't put a roof over my head or food on
> the table. To most people, "let's get real" means the latter. Reality then
> possesses as much variety as there are living creatures, being whatever
> is necessary to sustain a creature's individual life. Reality for a worm is
> different than reality for a bat. The point of the MOQ is that regardless of
> these differing "realities," value motivates all subjects great and small is
> thus fundamental. Or so I conclude.
> But, I could be wrong.

Mati: I agree largely, but the issue is basically a need to
fundamentally understand what is real in our world.  Pirsig talked
about it ZMM. This need which is often relinquished to philosophers,
clergy, and politicians to contend with.  And frankly SOM has allowed
this situation to become a reality unto itself.  This has created a
situation of alienation of so many toward the world of deeper
metaphysical understanding.  Now I think the issue in all of this is
the intellectual level and the reality is creates.  SOM I think we all
acknowledge is at the minimum a intellectual pattern and some of us
agree that it is "thee" intellectual pattern.  So much of what we
contend as real as intellect can fall into SOM and Bo and I contend it
all falls into it. When we ask if it is something is real S/O can
contend with so much of what we know as reality.  But ..... for the
rest we have MOQ to make sense of what SOM is unable to. The problem
is is that we have fail so many times in really able to define
intellect. Pirsig and his loyalists (I trying to say this in the most
respectful manner) contend that Bo is wrong and that S/O is not thee
intellect and is at best a single form of many forms of intellect.
When the issue is pushed further, side are drawn, and the stage is
set...  I tend to understand that those who debate Bo quickly find
themselves with a guy who has a passion for an idea that seems to
answer all objections with some kind of rational insight that makes
sense to me.  There are times people on MD post an objection that I
can see and understand, then I have waited to see Bo's response and
able to understand the weakness of the objection to SOL.  There
hasn't, IMO, been a knock out punch yet.  I find Bo's passion for SOL
no less than Pirsig's passion for MOQ, and that has made the world a
better place.

Ham:
I'm impressed, and I totally agree.  Quality and Intellect are both
"real" only if our focus is restricted to experiential reality.  But
one of Bo's habits is to posit S/O and intellect as stages of
evolution, which again tethers the MOQ (or SOL) to natural process,
limiting the ontology to space/time existence.  Like his mentor, Bo is
unwilling to explore a metaphysical approach to reality which could
resolve our dilemma.

Mati: Hmm.... On this issue again I have to side with Bo's staging of
the issue. I also agree with MOQ and Pirsig that there is an evolution
to reality that is a natural process. From my humble perspective isn't
Bo's a approach a metaphysical approach? (Like many, I am at best a
lay person who has a sincere interest in philosophy but not as
accomplished as most) Is there another that provides us with a greater
or simpler understanding?  Again my dedication to Pirsig's work is
related to simplicity of his levels created and driven by SQ/DQ
understanding of reality. It is so simple a kid can understand it.
Heck as I was writing the post my 9 year old son came in and asked
what I was doing.  I replied that I was writing/discussing about
intellect.  He asked what it, intellect, was.  In about minute I was
able to explain what the subjective and objective realities are and he
got it.  No confusion and it made sense to him.  No confusion, no
fuss, neat and clean.  I look forward to other questions he might have
about life and with MOQ and SOL I think I can manage to answer most of
them in a meaningful way.  If there is a more meaningful metaphysical
way to understand the world, lay it on me.

On that note I need to contend with making dinner and dealing with the
biological reality of a family's hunger.
Mati