[MD] Loneliness

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi again Dave

9 Sep.

(Bo earlier)
> > Anyway this blunder resulted in the Quality/MOQ "meta-metaphysics"
> > that overrides the MOQ and is a result from Pirsig's disastrous
> > association with James whose view was Pre-conceptual/Conceptual.
 
> I scrambled for the subscribe button.

Good.
 
> I had been making what I think is my third pass though the 900 page
> tome "The Writings of William James-A Comprehensive Edition- Edited by
> John J McDermott and feeling philosophical decided to check the
> discuss archive to review progress. Low and behold I hear you bashing
> both Pirsig and James for screwing up the MoQ. Oh why? Oh why? I just
> couldn't let it lie.

You may have noticed DMB's academical turn with focus on William 
James who "says the same as Pirsig" according to DMB. And he is 
right in the sense that P in LILA says that James says that subjects 
and objects aren't primary, they are secondary concepts derived from 
the immediate flux and that this is matches the MOQ only that the 
immediate flux is Quality. 

But (as said to Ian) this makes MOQ's fundamental split Quality/ 
Concepts. It may not bother the latter-day Pirsig who sees the MOQ as 
some disgusting, conceptual - static - by-product, but we who love the 
MOQ and sees with some skepticism at Pirsig will protest. I'll go back 
to ZAMM and Phaedrus original inside-out turn of the metaphysical 
sock.

    He'd been speculating about the relationship of Quality to mind 
    and matter and had identified Quality as the parent of mind 
    and matter, that event which gives birth to mind and matter. 
    This Copernican inversion of the relationship of Quality to the 
    objective world could sound mysterious if not carefully 
    explained, but he didn't mean it to be mysterious. He simply 
    meant that at the cutting edge of time, before an object can be 
    distinguished, there must be a kind of nonintellectual 
    awareness, which he called awareness of Quality. You can't be 
    aware that you've seen a tree until after you've seen the tree, 
    and between the instant of vision and instant of awareness 
    there must be a time lag. We sometimes think of that time lag 
    as unimportant, But there's no justification for thinking that the 
    time lag is unimportant...none whatsoever  

This is ambiguous too, it may be seen (like Ham does) as a conscious 
being becoming aware of something and then recognizes/ 
conceptualizes it as a tree. This is the most bland SOM of a mind 
aware of the world. No, what Phaedrus really meant is that the 
SUBJECT/OBJECT dualism was Quality's first fall-out. This dualism 
became "intellect"  in the the ensuing proto-moq. The final MOQ 
postulating 3 static level before intellect does not matter IMO. I 
suspect the post-hospital ZAMM-writing Pirsig not realizing this.  
  

That's all for now, as a "freshman" you may look impartially on it, as for 
myself I'm a bit jaded.   

Bodvar 



















     






> 
> As you are aware I believe James' work is foundational to the MoQ and
> that an understanding of this is instrumental to its long term
> success. You disagree, not just with me, but also RMP on this. I hope
> I can open your eyes. Keep an open mind, I will try to be gentle.
> 
> But as you know graphics is my first language, English my second. So I
> write slowly and think even slower. So it may take a while.
> 
> As a tease: Are you aware the James discusses in, (What make a Life
> Significant) a trip to speak at the original Chautauqua as a vehicle
> to discuss what was lacking in life? Or that in another lecture he
> discusses, gumption?  Surely you would have to admit that the term
> "gumption" in not one that commonly comes up in philosophical
> discussions. Mere coincidence? Maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 
>