[MD] Uncertainty

[John Carl]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:40 AM, David Thomas <combinedefforts at earthlink.net
> wrote:

> On 9/10/09 10:31 AM, "Andre Broersen" <andrebroersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dave(Before):
> > To put it in another way I believe that intellectual values,social values
> > and maybe even biological values will have to evolve to higher levels of
> > good prior to seeing any great improvement in the art of rebuilding our
> > cities, towns, or countries. I hold out hope for the MoQ, but not much in
> my
> > life time.
> >
>

John, way after

Och laddie, yer too gloomy by far.  Ye dinna need fash yerself with all them
levels.  Just fix intellect and everything should fall into place.
 Intellect astray is the main issue, I think.  When intellect is right, all
else flows naturally.



> > Andre:
> > Hi Dave, pleased to meet you. I wonder how you see this evolving 'to
> higher
> > levels of good' taking place. Is it happening outside of you? Do you have
> no
> > bearing at all on this process?
>
>
Dave]


> We're all kind of immersed in this dynamic soup. It's changing all the
> time.
>

John]

Another good reason to hope.  Dynamic change can occur quickly, and the
nature of our modern society with the techno-transmission of ideas quickly
across the formerly vast spaces...

Dave]


> We, individually and as groups, have an active role in this "change soup".
> It's figuring out now, what the future consequences of our actions will be
> that is the really difficult thing.


John]

Simple as pie.  Good ole Harry S. Truman's formula, we'll try it, and if it
doesn't work we'll try something else.  Let the future determine the
consequences in its own time.

Dave]


> With a better understanding of this
> multi-tiered order of complementary and competing values maybe we could
> make
> better choices. But 99.99999% of the people in the world have never heard
> of
> the MoQ.



John]

And it is difficult to explain in the short time you usually have in a
normal conversation about books.  What's it about?  Well, this guy was
really brilliant and frustrated with science... anyway, he went on this bike
trip with his son....   you'll have to read it for yourself.

And of those who do read?  More than half don't get it.


Dave]


> Even those like us who have, have trouble agreeing on what it means
> let alone how to apply it to real world issues. But we're work'n on it.
>

John]

Somewhere there's an interview with Pirsig where he describes the reaction
to ZAMM from the land of Zen itself and it was like, "yawn.  big deal,
everybody knows this."  Contrasted with skeptical academic reception in the
West where it's just "too far out" man.  He must have hit that Sweet Spot in
the Yin/Yang Symbol where you get the best/worst of both worlds.

The roller coaster with the BIG dips.





> >
> > I don't want to sound too naive but Pirsig's 'head, heart and hands'
> process
> > is a place to start and something we have control over. This attitude can
> > expand within our sphere of influence (family,friends, colleagues etc).
>
> He left out "health". As a 10 year member of 4H in my rural youth this was
> instilled starting at five. Let's see how my memory is: "I pledge my head
> to
> better________ my heart to better_____, my heath to better living, and my
> hands to better service for my family, my club, and my community." Not very
> good! Another stable pattern destabilizing. Next thing you know I'll be
> that
> pile of chemicals on a rock.
>
>
John]

Hey, I was in 4H.  I specialized in horse husbandry and thus know my pastern
from my fetlock.

My ma did a better job of raising me than I've done with my kids.  I never
put them in 4H.  Or bought them a horse.


> Mind you, I'm not holding my breath either but someone has to start
> > somewhere, some time, somehow as I am sure static patterns will not
> change
> > by and of themselves
>
> Well that's the kicker some of them do change without us (as individuals or
> even groups) being able to do anything about it. Like the old saw, "Climate
> is what we expect, weather is what we get." So figuring out how to deal
> with
> that reality in a good way is the challenge.
>
> Dave


John]

yeah?  well I like your thinking.  i'm looking forward to your contributions
to the dynamic soup.  What did hoboes call the stuff in the big communal
pot?  Mulligan stew?  Yeah, dish me up some of that.