[MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.

[MarshaV]

Greetings Bo,

I certainly understand you wanting to keep religion separate, and it does
seem the mystic experience is often linked to religious traditions, but it
doesn't have to be so.  I've read that even the Dalai Lama, in his efforts
to bring together East and West, has warned to be attentive to what is
insight/wisdom and what is cultural tradition, which are often entangled.
The Buddhist traditions are beneficial because they are not theistic, and
their purpose is to bring enlightenment (however that word may be understood
or misunderstood) to benefit all. 

Buddhism, and Zen Buddhism, promote meditation as the important technique
for gaining insight (imho).  It always astounds me that more on this MD List
do not see the importance of meditation.  In promoting Steve Hagen's book,
'Buddhism Plain and Simple', I think RMP has made a strong suggestion that
meditation is more than beneficial. For one, it puts you in touch with your
patterns.  Personally, I think that if you want access to the state beyond
the intellectual, meditation is essential. 

The Buddhist Middle Way tradition has also proved very important to my
understanding of the Dynamic/static split.  I understand all static patterns
as conventional reality, conventional truth, and Dynamic Quality equivalent
to Emptiness and Ultimate Truth. And while the intellectual patterns within
the Western sciences are used to understand and explain an inherently
existing external world of objects, the Eastern intellect is used to show
the illusionary nature of both self and objects and much more sympathetic to
the concept of interrelated, ever-changing patterns.  (When I speak of my
understanding, I mean understanding to the best of my ability.  I'm not a
Buddhist or a Buddhist scholar.)  

RMP has made a connection between Buddhism and the MoQ, and I think it very
worthwhile to explore that connection. After all it seems the one purpose of
the MoQ is to bring together the Western intellect with the Eastern
insight/wisdom.


Marsha 







-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of
skutvik at online.no
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:17 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: [MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.

Marsha

15 Sep you wrote:

> I am happy to state I cannot possibly support your SOL thesis if it
> considers the Buddhist point-of-view irrelevant.  But as before I do
> agree with you on the three points:  1.) that the Intellectual Level
> is a subject/object level.  2.)  that the MoQ is better represented by
> a Quality(static(patterned experience)/Dynamic(unpatterned
> experience)) Level above the Intellectual Level, and 3.)  that the
> Intellectual Level was birthed at the time of Plato/Aristotle&Company
> with the rational/irrational split.  (Although I am becoming
> increasingly convinced that the rational/irrational split was a
> trumped up fallacy.)   

Your agreements are much appreciated and covers the SOL 
completely. Regarding my "saving the MOQ from Zen" I've tried 
various ways of conveying my approach and this is my best entry. 

Applying the MOQ's level matrix, the concept "religion" as something 
mystic that ignores reason emerged after reason (SOM or the 
intellectual level). While the social level was leading edge people lived 
in (what intellect calls) a magical reality, everything was mystical and 
then nothing was mystical (the fish knows no water because it's totally 
immersed in it) 

Now I don my seven leagues boots. 

Intellect emerged in Greece (in the Western hemisphere) and its 
rationality was kind of adapted by the Romans who - even if they had 
gods - developed many intellect-based institution and  I think it was 
around this time that the term "religion" was coined, mainly about the 
monotheism myth  in the Roman province Judea. When intellect 
returned in force after the Middle Ages the secular/religious distinction 
was constantly more deep, i.e. religion became something subjective, 
private and - um - "mystic". 

The MOQ however changes everything by superimposing its DQ/SQ 
over it all  thereby relegating the religious/secular distinction to its 
intellectual level with no "jurisdiction" outside it and is why I am 
reluctant to associate the MOQ with Zen which is associated with 
"religion"  and/or "mysticism" in the Western hemisphere and then 
MOQ is caught in the S/O it is supposed to be an escape from. . But I 
may be wrong as Platt says.

Bodvar






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