[MD] Uncertainty

Mon Sep 21 22:41:11 PDT 2009

Will2,

I'm going to offer you the same quote that I offered Steve:

"He who neglects the present moment throws away all he has."  
  (Friedrich von Schiller)  

Static patterns of value are our conventional life and are conventionally
real.  The concept of a 'sematic circle of intellectual deception', though,
is pretty analogy.  

Do you think the word is the thing?  

Marsha 

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of markhsmit
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:14 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Uncertainty

Hi Marsha,

That is my point exactly.  The idol is real.  However, it is said that we
should not worship idols.  So that real object of worship is beyond idol.
We can call the new idol "beyond idol".  Any object of worship has to
be an idol.  We cannot imagine the unimaginable.

Which bring me to my earlier point.  We can imagine something
which is beyond definition.  It is the present, the now, the Ground
of all.  It is Quality, or Reality.  However, we seem to think that 
somehow that it is different from thinking or reasoning.  If we reason
or define, by some rule we are no longer discussing Quality, but 
somehow separate.  My point that by defining Quality, we are
directly experiencing it, not distancing ourselves from it.  It seems
a bit of trite to say that the ineffable exists, and cannot be communicated,

it's everything around.  It would appear to me that some of the
posts about Quality are drifting heavily into the mystical.  Which is
fine, since that is all part of it.

So, what is real to me?  It is every single thing I experience at the
moment, 
skiing down a hillside, reading a book, my memories, my fantasies.
To say those things are not real becomes a semantic circle of intellectual
deception.  But even that circle of deception is real.

Quality is not something outside of us that we can objectify but it
certainly is not ineffable.

Cheers,
Willblake2

On Sep 21, 2009, at 1:13:55 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
From:   MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
Subject:    Re: [MD] Uncertainty
Date:   September 21, 2009 1:13:55 AM PDT
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Will,

What is the 'real thing' to you? What is 'real' to you? 

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of markhsmit
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:37 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Uncertainty

Hi all,
This notion of quality being undefinable and only an experience is all
a bunch of semantic nonsense!

Like the rule not to worship idols.  You have to worship the real thing...

A definition is an experience!  Where do you draw the line at what is
experience and what isn't?  Reading these posts is an experience.
When I think of the definition of water, that is an experience.    
Show me some definition that is not an experience.
Labeling something as undefinable is a definition, and that
definition is an experience.  When you define Quality, 
that is an experience.  Dividing reality up into definitions and experience
is pure nonsense and doesn't lead anywhere.  It is phantom reasoning
through semantics.

Cheers,
Willblake2

On Sep 15, 2009, at 10:39:25 PM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
From: "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MD] Uncertainty
Date: September 15, 2009 10:39:25 PM PDT
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>
>
>
> Hi John and all,
>
> Imho in a DQ/SQ metaphysics there will always be something undefined in
our
> knowledge. SOM proposed that the undefined was found in S. Does that mean
> that I can¹t be held responsible for what I am doing? Morality requires an
> evolutionary environment for precision.
>

Joe,

I believe that the MoQ teaches that while Quality is undefinable as a
concept, it is an apprehensible experience. In other words, Quality can
only be defined in experience. This experience is all the precision
needed for morality.

John, humming along
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