[MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.

[markhsmit]

Interesting Bodvar that you would put REASON on such
a pedestal.  It implies that you are fully committed to your
reason, as being somehow above other forms of thought.

It is a manner of thinking that creates a reality, but it is far
from the only one.  Take your reason to the source of its
foundation, and then go beyond if you can.  You may find
that this thing called REASON is simply a convention for
communicating and existing as a group, nothing more.

Perhaps you are so entrenched that you can not imagine
anything outside your reason, your interconnected neurons
which create patterns from your interaction with the world.
It is nothing Glorious and Godlike.  But perhaps it is
best to stay that way, otherwise others may think you
as mad.

Cheers,
Willblake2

On Sep 22, 2009, at 2:07:08 AM, skutvik at online.no wrote:
From:   skutvik at online.no
Subject:    Re: [MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.
Date:   September 22, 2009 2:07:08 AM PDT
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Marsha and Group

21 Sep. you wrote:

> I certainly understand you wanting to keep religion separate, and it
> does seem the mystic experience is often linked to religious
> traditions, but it doesn't have to be so. I've read that even the
> Dalai Lama, in his efforts to bring together East and West, has warned
> to be attentive to what is insight/wisdom and what is cultural
> tradition, which are often entangled. The Buddhist traditions are
> beneficial because they are not theistic, and their purpose is to
> bring enlightenment (however that word may be understood or
> misunderstood) to benefit all. 

I started my post by saying that religion as something defying reason 
only occurred after "reason" i.e. the intellectual level. And I'm afraid 
this your introducing Dalai Lama brings MOQ into the murky Buddhist 
waters I want to "save it from" - sorry for being so implacable. He 
speaks about "insight-wisdom versus cultural tradition, and "insight-
wisdom" may match "what defies reason" but "cultural tradition" in 
Tibet is not our Western REASON. 

Tibetan cultural tradition was/is all about achieving the mystical 
experience while Western Reason is all about preventing such which 
is dismissed as hysteria, mental illness .. etc. 

Back to the MOQ. Before Reason - i.e. intellect - the social reality 
ruled and there was no S/O (mystic/reason) distinction (why it was 
regarded as Quality itself by Pirsig) Yet, the MOQ is not a return to the 
pre S/O (social reality) it's a reunion of Subject/Object beyond intellect. 
So, I do not particularly want to involve Orientalism because this may - 
as Pirsig and this discussion has touched on - be a culture that has 
gone through the intellectual stage, but not developed it into a SOM, 
before going on to a Quality-like stage.This creates OUR East/West 
chasm. Dalai Lama may understand the West, but we only sees 
"mysticism" over there. 

Yours profoundly 

Bodvar




Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/