[MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.

[skutvik at online.no]

William Blake the Second or Mark Smith

22 Sep. you wrote:

> Interesting Bodvar that you would put REASON on such a
> pedestal.  It implies that you are fully committed to your reason, as
> being somehow above other forms of thought. 

The 4th level is MOQ's highest and IMO "intellect is the ability to 
distinguish between what's objective and what's subjective (the S/O 
distinction)  and - finally - that this is  REASON or RATIONALITY, so 
no wonder  I put it very high, only subordinate to the overarching  
DQ/SQ configuration.   

There is no "thinking" (as mind-patterns) in the MOQ because there is 
no MIND (different from matter. There is INTELLIGENCE which is 
used by the biological level for its survival purpose and by the social 
level for its common cause purpose and - finally - by intellect for it 
rational purpose. That intellect's purpose is best goes without saying.   

> It is a manner of thinking that creates a reality, but it is far from
> the only one. Take your reason to the source of its
> foundation, and then go beyond if you can.  You may find
> that this thing called REASON is simply a convention for
> communicating and existing as a group, nothing more. 

I know you try to "improve my ways" but don't worry dear Mark I'm not 
fooled by Reason/Intellect/SOM, my focus is at the MOQ from where 
the level context is seen. 

> Perhaps you are so entrenched that you can not imagine
> anything outside your reason, your interconnected neurons
> which create patterns from your interaction with the world.
> It is nothing Glorious and Godlike.  But perhaps it is
> best to stay that way, otherwise others may think you
> as mad.

This is what I get for promoting the MOQ - not the trendy newageish 
nonsense that you obviously subscribes to. OK you may be a nice guy, 
but try to learn some more about the MOQ.

Bodvar





 




 
> Cheers,
> Willblake2
> 
> On Sep 22, 2009, at 2:07:08 AM, skutvik at online.no wrote:
> From:   skutvik at online.no
> Subject:    Re: [MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.
> Date:   September 22, 2009 2:07:08 AM PDT
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Marsha and Group
> 
> 21 Sep. you wrote:
> 
> > I certainly understand you wanting to keep religion separate, and it
> > does seem the mystic experience is often linked to religious
> > traditions, but it doesn't have to be so. I've read that even the
> > Dalai Lama, in his efforts to bring together East and West, has
> > warned to be attentive to what is insight/wisdom and what is
> > cultural tradition, which are often entangled. The Buddhist
> > traditions are beneficial because they are not theistic, and their
> > purpose is to bring enlightenment (however that word may be
> > understood or misunderstood) to benefit all. 
> 
> I started my post by saying that religion as something defying reason 
> only occurred after "reason" i.e. the intellectual level. And I'm
> afraid  this your introducing Dalai Lama brings MOQ into the murky
> Buddhist  waters I want to "save it from" - sorry for being so
> implacable. He  speaks about "insight-wisdom versus cultural
> tradition, and "insight- wisdom" may match "what defies reason" but
> "cultural tradition" in  Tibet is not our Western REASON. 
> 
> Tibetan cultural tradition was/is all about achieving the mystical 
> experience while Western Reason is all about preventing such which  is
> dismissed as hysteria, mental illness .. etc. 
> 
> Back to the MOQ. Before Reason - i.e. intellect - the social reality 
> ruled and there was no S/O (mystic/reason) distinction (why it was 
> regarded as Quality itself by Pirsig) Yet, the MOQ is not a return to
> the  pre S/O (social reality) it's a reunion of Subject/Object beyond
> intellect.  So, I do not particularly want to involve Orientalism
> because this may -  as Pirsig and this discussion has touched on - be
> a culture that has  gone through the intellectual stage, but not
> developed it into a SOM,  before going on to a Quality-like stage.This
> creates OUR East/West  chasm. Dalai Lama may understand the West, but
> we only sees  "mysticism" over there. 
> 
> Yours profoundly 
> 
> Bodvar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 
>