[MD] a view

[John Carl]

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:49 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> Greetings,
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:19 PM, John Carl wrote:
>
>
> > I think morality is served, not when social patterns are erased, but when
> > they are examined objectively (intellectually)
>
> Don't you think that by examining many social patterns objectively, that
> one does erase them.  Many just don't hold up under scrutiny.
>
>
Oh yes!  Absolutely.  But respect for social patterns is exactly like
respect for your parents.  You have to question the wisdom come down from of
old, but you can't just reject it thoughtlessly nor serve it slavishly.   It
seems like society always swings between those two poles.  Today we're much
more in the "reject it thoughtlessly" mode, it seems to me.



> I don't know.   Buddhism, for instance, certainly uses rationality to
> gain insight and wisdom, and to stay between the extremes of
> nihilism and objectivism.  But the intellect also represents a great
> subject/object fault that produces ignorance and greed.  Not sure
> what the answer is but I do agree that society changes one
> individual at a time.
>

That's good Marsha.  I hadn't thought of the extremes being nihlism and
objectivism, but that's it.  And I guess that's what disturbs me about "not
this, not that" - it seems nihilistic to me.

As does "I believe in nothing, everything is sacred, I believe in
everything, nothing is sacred".  I agree it has a great ring to it, and a
certitude of self-encapsulating wisdom, and my heart sang when I first read
the words.  But ultimately, it doesn't do it for me, metaphysically
speaking.  It's just playin' with ambiguity in a fun way, but it's not
logical enough to actually make sense.


As a phrase, it offers itself as a useful refutation, rather than a useful
projection of positive meaning.


> But I really liked the dialogue you two create here in looking freshly at
> > the old formulations.
>
> Look Ma, I'm having a friendly discussion with Arlo.  Hurray!
>
>
>
Now I had no idea that that is at all an unusual event.

Now if I had a friendly discussion with dmb...

That would be proof of miracles.

Hey, speaking of miracles, I heard on the news yesterday about a mining
accident of some kind in China were all or most of the workers were saved
and the Chinese government announced it as "miraculous".  I wonder what an
atheist commie means by "miraculous'?

John





> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Arlo Bensinger wrote:
> >>
> >>> [Marsha]
> >>> I think it is a verse written for the individual.  I think many social
> >> patterns should dissolve.  I interpret the word 'sustain' to means 'to
> keep
> >> from giving way', so I  translate the first 2 lines as:  While not
> letting
> >> the biological and social levels collapse, let intellectual patterns
> >> dissolve' and morality will be served.   Hopefully, this answers the
> >> remaining questions too.
> >>>
> >>> [Arlo]
> >>> I guess my question remains why social patterns should not be dissolved
> >> as well? If I use your words here, I'd offer something like this
> instead.
> >>>
> >>> While sustaining just enough biological patterns to preserve your life
> >>> Dissolve all intellectual and social patterns.
> >>> Dissolve them completely
> >>> And then follow Dynamic Quality
> >>> And morality will be served.
> >>
> >>
> >> I have no problem with the importance of the family and
> >> community in sustaining life.  I have never said otherwise.
> >> But I do think that many social patterns have outgrown their
> >> usefulness.  A long time ago I read 'The Social Construction
> >> of Reality', by Peter L. Berger and Thomas Luckmann.  It
> >> address such issues.  I bet you've read it.
> >>
> >>
> >>> The first line I can see, because dying while meditating or taking
> peyote
> >> will likely do you no good.
> >>
> >> It's Saint Marsha.  I do not drink, smoke, or take drugs, not
> >> even the prescribed type.  This is not an issue for me.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> But the second line I'd propose makes more sense (considering, again,
> >> Pirsig's view on the morality of the hippie movement), if we say that in
> >> that drive to get to the Zero-Point, we let all static patterns that may
> >> effect our ability to see "something new" pass away. Social patterns
> like
> >> religion must be left go off as well, as should social roles like what
> it
> >> means to be a mother or uncle. All preconceived notions (patterns) that
> >> effect our "vision" should be left to dissolve away (I do like that
> >> metaphor).
> >>
> >> This dissolution I think is for the moment.  I am not talking of a
> >> lobotomy.
> >> There might be a moment when an intellectual pattern is very
> appropriate,
> >> if so I'm quite sure it will prevail.   The rest of your paragraph seem
> >> presented for the sake of the argument, but I think such speculation is
> >> a waste of time.  It would be better to be mindful of the flow of
> patterns,
> >> than to let the flow of patterns control the situation.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> And, like I mentioned, it makes this statement true for all people, not
> >> just those with "relaxed" social codes.
> >>>
> >>> The next question would be, "And then what?" What do we do when we come
> >> out of the Zero-Point, after we've been effected by some Dynamic
> insight?
> >> I'd submit we re-construct our social and intellectual patterns
> accordingly.
> >> "Killing" them may take us to that moment of Zen, but its what we do
> with
> >> enlightenment coming back that makes it count. IMHO.
> >>
> >> This seems like too much speculation.  What if you awaken and realize
> that
> >> when you do harm, it is yourself you are harming?  What if you begin to
> see
> >> their is no separation between you and I.   What if we discover that our
> >> present
> >> subject/object ideas of reality are nonsense?  I, at least, like my
> >> speculations
> >> better.
> >>
> >>
> >> Marsha
> >>
> >>
> >>
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