[MD] A fly in the MOQ ointment

[Jon Bennett]

What are the 4 levels.  Dooyeweered has 15.



On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Mary <marysonthego at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> Yes, Pirsig certainly did say that, but that is not the important thing
> about the levels.  He also says this further along in the same quote.
> [quote]
> In a value-centered Metaphysics of Quality the four sets of static patterns
> are not isolated into separate compartments of mind and matter.  Matter is
> just a name for certain inorganic value patterns.  Biological patterns,
> social patterns, and intellectual patterns are supported by this pattern of
> matter but are independent of it.  They have rules and laws of their own
> that are not derivable from the rules or laws of substance.  This is not
> the
> customary way of thinking, but, when you stop to think about it you wonder
> how you ever got conned into thinking otherwise.  What, after all, is the
> likelihood that an atom possesses within its own structure enough
> information to build the city of New York?
>
> If you are trying to tell me that the 4 Levels are nothing more than
> groupings of similar things, then the power of the MoQ is diluted.  The
> levels start to take on an arbitrariness that defeats the whole concept of
> Levels.  Might as well introduce a taxonomic classification system.  They
> are not called "Static Patterns of VALUE" for nothing.  What is valued by
> one level is not valued by another, and that is what makes the levels
> differ
> from each other.
>
> Mary
>
> - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org [mailto:moq_discuss-
> > bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Steven Peterson
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 7:30 AM
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] A fly in the MOQ ointment
> >
>  > Hi Mary,
> >
> > You had said:
> > >The thing
> > > that makes the whole construct of the MoQ WORK is the idea that sets
> > of
> > > patterns only achieve the status of a Level when they cease to
> > support the
> > > level they are in and go off to meet ends of their own.  Brilliant!
> >
> > Steve:
> > I disagreed, and the quote you provided demonstates that Pirsig calls
> > higher levels "levels" before they go off on purposes of their own.
> > The fact that the fist intellectual patterns offered freedom to social
> > patterns does not mean that they did not constitute a level in
> > Pirsig's hierarchy of types of patterns of value.
> >
> >
> > > Lila Chapter 12 pg 101 (Electronic)
> > >...
> > > A primary occupation of every level of evolution seems to be offering
> > freedom to lower levels of evolution.  But as the higher level gets
> > more sophisticated it goes off on purposes of its own.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Steve
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