[MD] MOQ would seems to imply that above human intelligence computers

[Horse]

Hi Ian

Comments below:

On 17/04/2010 09:23, Ian Glendinning wrote:
> Horse is right people are confusing "computers" with AI, etc.
>    

It's very common as most people are pretty much unaware of the 
technology contained within everyday items in their pockets, homes, cars 
etc. As I said they are ubiquitous (everywhere to save anyone looking 
that up in a dictionary!). What is also very common is the 
misunderstanding of the differences between software and hardware that 
makes up what we see as a "machine". You can have purely hardware 
machines, purely software machines or combinations to greater or lesser 
degrees. It's not surprising that most people make these errors.

> Bo said in response to John,
> "Right, intellect - science - constructed computers that mimics memory
> and logical circuits, these surpasses the biological counterparts in
> certain aspects (calculation) but LAGS light-years behind in other
> aspects. And this can NEVER be the building block of the Q-social
> development."
>
> Apart from the fact that light years are a measure of distance, not time ....
> A long time is NOT the same as never. Is it Bo ?
> It's a matter of perspective.
>
> AI will exist when it evolves to be so - it won't be "artificial"
> then. Those "machines" will be highly biological and social by they
> time they do - by definition - but the biology and social / somatic
> communication aspects could be vastly different to the carbon-based
> mammalian experience we are accustomed to. Don't hold your breath - it
> will be a very long time, in human individual lifespans, even though
> it could be very much faster than our evolution so far as species.
>    

I think you may be being a bit pessimistic here Ian for a number of 
reasons. If you look at the time-scales involved in carbon-based 
biological/social/intellectual evolution and the orders of magnitude 
reductions involved from one to the other and then look at the silicon 
equivalents we may well see intelligent computers in our lifetimes - I'd 
make a hefty bet that they'll be around in our grand-children's lifetimes.
Also, what I'm talking about here is not computers as machines in the 
common idiom, but software machines and how they evolve. Viruses and 
similar are software not hardware and their environment is pretty 
flexible. The distinction between AI and ALife is quite blurry in 
certain areas but ALife seems to be progressing faster than GOF AI.
The way I'm thinking about it is that 'artificial' life or intelligence 
is _non-human_ intelligence and fits within the MoQ as a different 
branch or network of evolution and maybe solves the problem that some 
have here about ant, ape or whale societies and intellects etc. as, 
using this network model within the MoQ allows us to consider other 
carbon-based life as separate from human evolution. The human 
evolutionary network is qualitatively different in structure and value 
patterns to the way evolutionary networks of other types of life will 
appear beyond the biological level - if you take a 'systems thinking' 
approach of relationships and connectedness where the properties of 
these systems are properties of the whole and are not properties of the 
parts.
Looking at MoQ patterns of Value as networks (of patterns of value) 
shows different branching's at different places at all levels - in many 
cases comparing these different branches is pointless in terms of what 
is better contextually. Is it better to have gills or lungs? It depends 
on whether you're a fish or a pony!

> The reason it's an interesting is question - how dystopian the outcome
> might be - is that it affects our attitude to whether we (humans)
> resist or support that evolution. People who say it'll never happen,
> are simply opting out of the question for their own lifetime.
> Understanding seems the better choice to me.
>
>    

Yeah, me too. Saying something will never happen is facile more often 
than not. And I'm an optimist so 'vive la evolution'  :)

Horse

-- 

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"... Hunter S Thompson