[MD] [Bulk] Re: the universe is flat

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Mon Apr 26 12:50:22 PDT 2010 

Jon,
Sorry Jon, I could have been considered just as rude to not
respond at all.  I guess I made the wrong choice.


Marsha



On Apr 26, 2010, at 2:38 PM, Jon Bennett wrote:

> Marsha,
> Why bother to tell me what you don't want to discuss unless it is kind of
> personal one-upmanship that motivates you.
> 
> It does not surprise me that you are unwilling to explore the facts, and are
> comfortable with your own biases.
> 
> And it certainly does not bring me agony but is a blessed relief.
> 
> Jon
> 
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:20 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello Jon,
>> 
>> To lessen the agony, I will tell you that I have no interest in discussing
>> theism, God, Moses, Jesus, Zeus, or any of the men who wrote the
>> various versions of the bible.    Sorry, but not interested...
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 26, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Jon Bennett wrote:
>> 
>>> Marsha,
>>> 
>>> Many call themselves, or claim to be Christians who do not follow the
>>> teachings of Christ.
>>> 
>>> So here is an important distinction to keep in mind. Many of the
>> atrocities
>>> of
>>> atheist regimes are in perfect harmony with their basic assumptions. The
>>> Witch burnings, and Inquisition were counter to Biblical teaching.
>>> 
>>> In fact, they did have their origin in Neoplatonic thought which sought
>> to
>>> liberate the soul from the body, to save the soul. This is not a Biblical
>> or
>>> Christian teaching!!! I don't care who does it or what they call
>> themselves.
>>> I am saying a Biblical world view is the origin of human rights in the
>> West,
>>> and their enshrinement in law.
>>> 
>>> In the case of Heidegger, he explicitly applied his philosophy to justify
>>> Hitler and the Nazi regime! It was in perfect agreement, and fulfillment
>> of
>>> his thought. This is a major difference.
>>> 
>>> Likewise, he saw the crisis in philosophy as one and the same with the
>>> crisis in Western Europe, and he saw his philosophy, and the German state
>> as
>>> the fulfillment and answer to that crisis.
>>> 
>>> And he also saw great parallels with Greek language and philosophy and
>>> German language and philosophy.
>>> And if you look at Greek philosophy and Greek politics you will not find
>> the
>>> freedom and rights we have. You will find slavery, oppression of women,
>> and
>>> warfare between and among the city states. The average Greek died at age
>> 25
>>> because of this unrest, and even at its height the Golden age of Greece
>>> lasted only 50 years.
>>> 
>>> But show me where the Inquisition is taught in the Bible, or the burning
>> of
>>> witches. In the Inquisition it was Christians who were tortured too!!!
>>> Remember the Pit and the Pendulum, it was a Protestant under the
>> Pendulum!
>>> This fictional story is correct in this aspect
>>> 
>>> Are you making the belief of the victims the cause of the crime? The
>>> Catholic Church likewise persecuted the reformers, burning Tyndale, and
>>> others at the stake for trying to translate the Bible so the common folk
>>> could read it.  It was this long tortuous struggle for religious reform
>> in
>>> the West that led to religious freedom, upon which all the rest of our
>>> freedoms rest.
>>> 
>>> I am not speaking about the goodness of man, but the goodness of a
>> specific
>>> belief system. And if you are one that thinks man is basically good, and
>> you
>>> don't believe in God, then who commit
>>> ted these atrocities throughout history, the ones you and I mention??? It
>>> had to be man in all his natural goodness!
>>> 
>>> Jon
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:35 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Jon,
>>>> 
>>>> If you want to connect German philosophy with the Nazis, I get to
>> connect
>>>> Christian philosophy with the Inquisition.  And just to refresh your
>> memory
>>>> patterns, the Northern European Protestant-Christians burned more
>> "witches"
>>>> then their southern Catholic-Christian counterpart.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Jon Bennett wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Apples and organges. I did not say I was a Catholic. The Catholic
>> church
>>>> was
>>>>> based on mix of religions grond motives that combined the greel
>>>> form-matter
>>>>> gm with the Christian. That's what the Reformation was for, out of
>> which
>>>> our
>>>>> rights grew, returning to the original truth in solo scriptura.
>>>>> 
>>>>> At certain times the Catholic church was little more than a mob,
>>>> especially
>>>>> during the time of the Medici. There were many political motives worked
>>>> out,
>>>>> and into the Catholic church.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But this is a fair question Marha, and a serious one, thank you for
>>>> raising
>>>>> it. It is something I'd like to take the time to develop.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would suggest when you have time to look into Dooyeweerd as you have
>>>> time.
>>>>> http://ciots.blogsome.com/
>>>>> 
>>>>> The idea of the Holy Roman Empire was derived from the pagan,
>>>> Aristotelian
>>>>> idea of the state which thought of it as a higher organization than the
>>>>> other spheres.
>>>>> 
>>>>> DW's idea of sphere sovereignty shows why this is flawed and doesn't
>> give
>>>>> priority to any of the spheres.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But I would like to carefully discuss this idea of the origin of human
>>>>> rights, and the political and social outcomes of both the Chrisitan and
>> a
>>>>> moq world view.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jon
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 11:27 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You prefer the philosophy of the Inquisition?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 11:13 AM, Jon Bennett wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When I consider the impact of German philosophy on the world, which
>>>>>>> culminated in Heideeger becoming a Nazi and using his philosophy to
>>>>>> justify
>>>>>>> and promote Hitler, I can only say with Solomon:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a
>>>> time
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> dance;
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Eccl 3:4
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Laugh, Jon, laugh...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Jon Bennett wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> MarshaV,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> German philosophers inhabit every
>>>>>>>>> moq post. It's in the lineage, the background, the very DNA of moq.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But your'e right, there is an antidote! But it's not at all a
>>>> pleasant
>>>>>>>>> process. You first have to go through the shock, stress and pain,
>> of
>>>>>>>>> withdrawal and detox. Then you'll need to find a good moq anonymous
>>>>>>>> meeting
>>>>>>>>> and attend faithfully.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 2:24 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure somewhere there's an antidote for too many German
>>>>>> philosophers
>>>>>>>>>> listed in a single post.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:18 AM, Jon Bennett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> MarshaV, John, Ian and company,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> At some point I want to discuss the archetypes of this, and the
>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>>>>> age.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> If you've looked at the link I posted by Tarnas, you'll see that
>> he
>>>>>>>>>> refers
>>>>>>>>>>> to a certain nexus of interrelated ideas that are behind each
>> age.
>>>>>>>> These
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> the metaphysical roots that P speaks of, and each age has them.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The interesting thing is when you look at them closely, it is
>> clear
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> these ideas were originally derived from ideas, or
>> characteristics
>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> God.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is most evident and easy to trace with Newton. He is
>>>> constantly
>>>>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>>>>>> space is absolute, eternal, and uniform, because God is. He was
>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>> clear
>>>>>>>>>>> about this and intentionally thought this way as to understand
>> how
>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>> worked in the world.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In any event, these ideas that were once thought of as aspects of
>>>>>> God,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> in a specific tradition, become the archetypes, the core ideas of
>>>>>>>>>>> mechanistic physics.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Not only this, these same ideas are then imputed to all other
>>>> realms
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> thought and cultural expression.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is also true with modern physics. Ever read the Tao of
>>>> Physics,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> Capra's, The Turning Point. He shows meticulously how the ideas
>> in
>>>>>>>>>> physics,
>>>>>>>>>>> classical and modern, were spread to other areas of thought.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In both cases, these archetypal ideas can be traced back to
>>>> theology,
>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>> in a secular or non religious age, or even once they take on new,
>>>> non
>>>>>>>>>>> religious meanings.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The archetypes behind quantum physics and relativity and even
>>>>>>>> complexity
>>>>>>>>>>> science like wise can be traced back to philosophy and theology.
>>>> You
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>> trace it back to when Hegel wanted to combine the ideas of the
>>>> finite
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> the infinite, the Creator and the creation. This was an
>> intentional
>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel and other of the German Idealist philosophers that followed
>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> this influence was likewise felt on the Romantic poets.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I know this is but a broad outline, but Hegel and most of the
>>>>>> Idealist
>>>>>>>>>>> philosophers were trained as theologians, and their philosophy
>>>>>>>>>> deliberately
>>>>>>>>>>> incorporated theological ideas, and these subsequently influenced
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>>>> of science, as it did the whole of the culture.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hegel's influence in this shift was the Greeks whom he idealized.
>>>> And
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> believe you can trace the moq back to this turning point in
>> Western
>>>>>>>>>> thought,
>>>>>>>>>>> which might be described as the easternization of the West.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> There's an interesting chapter in Alan Blooms, The Closing of the
>>>>>>>>>> AMerican
>>>>>>>>>>> Mind, called the German connection, which also makes this
>>>> connection
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> the sixties culture and high German philosophy. And there is also
>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> connection of German philosophy with Eastern mysticism, as well
>> as
>>>>>>>> Greek
>>>>>>>>>>> thought. But the trend form Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, that leads
>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> Nietzsche and then Heidegger, is the trend that Pirsig swims in.
>>>> Did
>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>> it furhter than the rest, I'm not sure yet. But he is in this
>> very
>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>> lineage which was begun by theologians considering the nature of
>>>> God.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM, John Carl <
>> ridgecoyote at gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> When you say "dropped" Marsha, I can take your meaning two
>>>> differing
>>>>>>>>>> ways:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:59 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to agree that the terms God/Creator/Designer should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dropped as 'a relic of an evil social suppression of
>> intellectual
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic freedom.'
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> The first way of "dropped" is the way we drop a belief in Santa
>>>>>> Claus
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> grow older and more sophisticated.  An adult realization.  I
>>>> dropped
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> belief in Santa Claus when I was around ten.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> The second possible meaning I can think of is dropped
>> completely,
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> even teaching kids about Santa Clause in the first place.
>>>> Expunging
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>> from our social memories.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean God should be dropped completely from the world's
>>>> ideas?
>>>>>>>> Or
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> you mean on an individual level where a child develops an idea
>> of
>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind and worth by his/her overcoming the belief in God?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or Santa Claus, for that matter.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you get my question, let me know your answer, or if not one
>> of
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>>>>> interpretations, some other way of dropping God.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Like, "OOps.  I just dropped your God.  I hope He didn't break."
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> John the God breaker
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
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