[MD] Bo's right! For all the wrong reasons? (Part2)

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Wed Aug 4 05:14:33 PDT 2010 

Greetings,   


By all means, I agree that all the ideas presented in LILA should be 
explored thoroughly.   That would definitely represent 'Inquiry'.  


Marsha



On Aug 4, 2010, at 7:54 AM, Mary wrote:

> Hi Marsha & Dave Thomas by reference,
> 
>  If one makes a judgement about him from the position of the
>> small self,
>> it will be nothing but the reflection of the small self's limited
>> perspective.  
> 
> I agree that none of us are Jesus Christ.  To expect perfection of anyone is
> to objectify them.  I also agree with Dave Thomas though, too, in his recent
> series of posts.  There's something rotten in Denmark.  Dave pointed to a
> number of things, none of which are fatal in and of themselves, and my
> concern is probably not either, but the accumulated weight of
> inconsistencies in Lila is telling and I, for one, think this is an area
> worthy of exploration.  
> 
> ZMM speaks with a voice of honesty and authenticity.  We will never know if
> this is justified, but even if it was made entirely of whole cloth (which I
> don't believe it was) the ideas expressed ring true as those of a tormented
> individual desperately trying to make sense of the human condition.  He
> bravely confronts his beasts and I admire his willingness to step up to the
> plate and examine his value as a father to Chris.  This is important to the
> authenticity of the book since it is, after all, about a motorcycle trip
> with his son.  In contrast, Lila chronicles a boat trip with a woman, but he
> never once reveals the true nature of why he is there.  The premise is false
> and thus calls into question the basis for certain of the insights he
> proposes.  
> 
> Now you could argue that this is irrelevant, but given that the title itself
> is "Lila an Inquiry into _Morals_", I would say that at the very least, he
> missed a golden opportunity there.
> 
> Best,
> Mary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2010, at 9:15 PM, Mary wrote:
>> 
>>> I've been uneasy for many years with "Lila" the book.  If you check
>> back in
>>> the archives you will find where I objected to the sexism in it many
>> years
>>> ago without even being aware of the truth of it.  It wasn't until
>> recently I
>>> learned that Pirsig was so completely dishonest about it.  What an
>> ugly
>>> secret!  Had I known he was a married man having an affair with Lila
>> on his
>>> journey down the Hudson, that would have put the whole thing in an
>> entirely
>>> different light for me right from the start.  Now I'm not such a
>> prude that
>>> I can't get past that to see the value in his writings, but when I
>> did learn
>>> this I must say I was disappointed to see it in a man self-proclaimed
>> to be
>>> in search of beauty, truth, and Quality.  I am a grown up woman and
>>> understand entirely the weakness of men (having observed this at
>> first hand
>>> numerous times - they are but children in the grips of testosterone
>> after
>>> all, and cannot really help it, but wouldn't it have been much more
>>> revelatory for him to be honest about what he was doing?  I mean, if
>> you are
>>> writing a book fraught with psychology and heavy with metaphysical
>> meaning,
>>> wouldn't you think honesty would be a prime directive?  When I first
>> learned
>>> about his philandering, I was so disappointed I almost chucked the
>> whole
>>> thing.  Then I realized that he already had chucked the whole thing
>> in Lila
>>> on his own.  By this I mean where he disavows his original insights
>> into the
>>> intellect of Man and in Lila waters the whole thing down to a thesis
>>> proposition worthy of a Masters degree.  But the original ideas in
>> ZMM were
>>> worthy.  The Intellectual Level as SOM makes perfect sense for me and
>> makes
>>> even the most egregious BS in Lila palatable - especially now that I
>>> understand he was merely justifying his own lack of integrity with
>> that
>>> book.  What a shame really.
>>> 
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization.
>>> 
>>>> bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of David Thomas
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 5:33 PM
>>>> Hi Krimel,
>>>>> 
>>>>> [Krimel]
>>>>> Excellent set of posts here, Dave. I have been beating away at most
>>>> of this
>>>>> for a long time but you have summarized it all very nicely.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> I also agree strongly with what you said about the relationship of
>>>> ZMM to
>>>>> Lila. ZMM is almost universally regarded as the better book.
>>>> After nearly 15 years and countless hours of head banging I finally
>>>> came to
>>>> the conclusion that the MoQ just has too many problems. Since I just
>>>> recently came to this conclusion, from a philosophical point of view
>>>> I'm not
>>>> sure how much is salvageable from either book.
>>>>> I see it in almost every
>>>>> bookstore I wander into and while Lila is there sometimes it is
>>>> nowhere near
>>>>> as ubiquitous.
>>>> I always make it a point to check out where they are shelved in my
>>>> local
>>>> Barnes and Noble. They're always restocking and moving things a
>> little
>>>> based
>>>> on shelf space. Both are always in or around "Oriental Religion" but
>>>> you
>>>> will sometimes find them the next shelf over in "New Age-Occult."
>> Last
>>>> time
>>>> it was four copies of ZaMM in "Oriental Religion" and one forlorn
>> copy
>>>> of
>>>> Lila at the bottom of the "Christianity" section. What a hoot!
>>>>> I would almost recommend the opposite of what Paul Turner
>>>>> suggested. He claimed that since Lila was later than ZMM, whenever
>>>> there was
>>>>> a conflict Lila should be regarded as taking precedence. I think
>> Lila
>>>> is
>>>>> full of errors from the making of up of James quotes but the
>> failure
>>>> to
>>>>> understand the basics of evolution.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is an example of that which I haven't heard mentioned before.
>>>> Take
>>>>> Pirsig the social critic. He spends a lot of Lila talking about
>>>> Victorians
>>>>> and hippie and the radical social transformations of the '60s with
>>>> very
>>>>> little mention of civil rights and feminism. These were far more
>>>> profound
>>>>> and radical changes in the American way of doing things than the
>>>> peace and
>>>>> love anti-war movement of the hippies. It is hard to take serious
>> any
>>>>> analysis of trends in American culture of the 1960's that ignores
>>>> civil
>>>>> rights and feminism especially in a treatise on morality.
>>>> Right. What about the Weatherman,SDS etc ? I recently heard
>> somewhere
>>>> that
>>>> there were more acts of terroristic bombing and arson during that
>>>> period
>>>> than any other in American history. Pirsig, no comment.
>>>>> I particularly agree that to the extent that Pirsig is trying to
>> lay
>>>> an
>>>>> intellectual foundation for morality, he fails utterly. He doesn't
>>>> even
>>>>> address Mill and doesn't talk at all about Kant's ideas about
>>>> morality other
>>>>> than to call them ugly. He doesn't mention at all any contemporary
>>>> thinkers
>>>>> in morality. How are we to take this seriously?
>>>> Right, just this morning before read your post I Googled "moral
>>>> metaphysics"
>>>> in addition to Kant and many, many others I found this:
>>>> http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/eps/PES-Yearbook/95_docs/cunningham.html
>>>> Any reference to Dewey's "Natural Metaphysics" or the whole class of
>>>> similar
>>>> work by others in Lila?
>>>> 
>>>> Or this which I recently caught in a reread of "The Matrix and
>>>> Philosophy"
>>>> 
>>>> "...dialectics is a theory of evolution or progress. It is based on
>>>> the...idea that the engine that drives motion and change...is the
>>>> struggle
>>>> of opposing forces. Someone who thinks dialectically thinks the of
>> the
>>>> world
>>>> as a constantly evolving place, a place that life is never still.
>>>> Moreover,
>>>> a dialectician (which Pirsig forthrightly claims to be) thinks of
>> the
>>>> world
>>>> as space in which oppositions between everything from individual
>>>> molecules
>>>> of matter to complex ideas are striving to reach new levels of
>>>> consciousness
>>>> and organization."
>>>> 
>>>> Cross out "consciousness" and is this not a pretty good synopsis of
>> the
>>>> system MoQ proposes?  Now the other shoe. The lead in to this
>> paragraph
>>>> before the first dots say:
>>>> 
>>>> "The theoretical foundations of Marx's thought are derived, in part,
>>>> from a
>>>> novel reading of German philosopher G.W.F. Hegel's "dialectical"
>>>> philosophies. In Marxist thought,..."
>>>> 
>>>> Why no reference to Marx, and only these two for Hegel, in Lila?
>>>> 
>>>>> A review of his book in the Harvard Educational Review had said
>> that
>>>> his idea
>>>>> of truth was the same as James. The London Times said he was a
>>>> follower of
>>>>> Aristotle. Psychology Today said he was a follower of Hegel. If
>>>> everyone was
>>>>> right he had certainly achieved a remarkable synthesis. But the
>>>> comparison
>>>>> with James interested him most because it looked like there might
>> be
>>>> something
>>>>> to it. (Lila 152)
>>>> 
>>>>> He didn't like Hegel or any of the German idealists who dominated
>>>> philosophy
>>>>> in his youth precisely because they were so general and sweeping in
>>>> their
>>>>> approach.(Lila 152)
>>>> 
>>>> The world wide consequence of Marxist definitively answers that
>>>> question.
>>>> 
>>>> The Matrix maybe an apt metaphor for Lila.
>>>> 
>>>> Dave
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
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