[MD] MOQ Recursion

[Arlo Bensinger]

[John]
It is a process, not an artifact.

[Matt]
It is necessary that it is both, just not at the same time.  I think 
Arlo understands this, which is why he _did not_ say "mere."

[Arlo]
Right. "Artifacts" are never fixed or permanent either, they are 
always being reshaped, redesigned, reimagined, etc. described by 
Bakhtin as "dialogism". My comment to John was in seeing this as 
unique to Pirsig's metaphysics is wrong. He may have created or 
envisioned a more visibly active negotiation, but this negotiation 
occurs for all meaning, and Pirsig's ideas themselves occur as part 
of this historical, evolutionary dialogue. This brings me back to 
Pirsig's comment about the "Papal Bull", which seems to imply the 
idea that if he speaks he hinders this evolutionary process. Which is "Bull".

In this sense, "artifacts" are quite simply the "stable pattern of 
values" the spring from the discriminatory process, but then also 
inform and move the process forward, becoming part of the process. 
Like little whirlpools that form and dissipate on the surface of a 
lake. And here we are talking specifically about these patterns of 
value called "levels" and I am asking, according to Pirsig's 
metaphysics, what type of value pattern are they?

Of course I think they are intellectual patterns of value. But when 
this is applied to the "intellectual level" creates recursive 
nightmares for some, and they seem to think that enlarging the box to 
add a new level of some sort escapes this recursion. It does not. 
Marsha and Bo are adding a new metaphysical entity to Pirsig's ideas, 
suggesting that in addition to DQ and SQ there is something called 
"labels" or "levels" that are neither DQ nor SQ (patterns of value) 
but something else. Or like Mary, they will say the "level" itself is 
a "pattern of value" but refuse to specify which type, suggesting 
then there are five types of patterns of value; inorganic, 
biological, social, intellectual and this other kind that is none of 
these but is still a "pattern of value".