[MD] MOQ Recursion

[MarshaV]

On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:05 PM, John Carl wrote:

> Marsha,
> 
> Found it!
> 
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:03 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Et tu Brutus?
>> 
>> 
> Now I can see how you might take it that way, so let me clarify and
> reinterpret somewhat.

Marsha:
I should use eMotives more often.  I was teasing.  I appreciate you taking 
what I say seriously.  And if you disagree, that is fine.    


> First off, my pleading for the balance of romantic/classic as the
> intellectual level, is met more consistently by you Marsha, than any other
> member of this list.  You bring a much needed romantic quality to the MoQ
> and are heavily outweighed by all the classically oriented intellectuals
> which dominate such a metaphysical discussion as this.  So I sure don't
> want to make you feel ganged up on.

Marsha:
Arlo can play a tough game, but I was both serious and playing too.   
   

> So let me readdress my points in a way that hopefully doesn't make you feel
> quite so stabbed in the back.
> 
> John prev:
> 
>> 
>>> But since it's a high Quality statement for you, I assume it's a High SQ
>>> formulation.  What I'm wondering then, is if this high SQ is blocking
>>> any DQin your intellectual patterning, since you sorta default to it
>>> over and over, like a programming bug or a clinging to the one felt
>>> and known and trusted?
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> l imagine this last bit makes sense to you, but it doesn't to me.  I
>> certainly canget into the MoQ as intellectual volleyball, but that
>> will not be the same as"unpatterned experience/patterned
>> experience", not even close.
>> 
>> 
> 
> John:  
> Intellectual volleyball?  Cute.  I like it.  Everybody has their own
> set moves, their own particular patterns.  Now, you often offer us, this
> "unpatterned experience/patterned experience" as your own particular
> favorite leap up and spike over the net.  Which from my perspective,
> sends the ball out of bounds.
> 
> "out of bounds", in intellectual discourse, means it's irrational.  When you
> say "unpatterned", you can't really mean NON-patterned.  There is no such
> thing as "non-patterned".  However I do believe there is experience that is
> non-intellectual.  That is, there is patterning that is transcendant of
> intellectuality and I suspect that is what you mean by the experience to be
> found in meditation.

Marsha:
Present without value added, and that is unpatterned.  Aware without 
value added, and that is unpatterned.  Sight without color, form, identification 
or emotions.  


> Since we define the boundaries of play as "rationality", then, any
> experience which describes  "transcendant of rationality" as being part of
> the game is a logical contradiction.  And yet, the MoQ does exactly this and
> thus, you make a good point.  However you can only leap up and spike if
> somebody sets it up for you.
> 
> Do you see the problem?

Marsha:
There is unpatterned experience.  


> me neither.  But it's starting to take a fuzzy shape in my mind.

Marsha:
A dropping away of the value added patterns.    


>>> John:
>>> 
>>> Yes, and how does that make you feel?  Or to put it the way Ron,
>>> often does, what good does it do? Where does this "represent"come
>>> in handy in the real world?
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Find out for yourself, John.   You once told me you were a totally
>> rationally-based person.  So was the question of feelings addressed
>> to me because you project me as a mommy?  And could you handle
>> any kind of explanation beyond rationality according to your own
>> self-description?
>> 
>> 
> 
> John:
> 
> I misspoke before.  I'm not totally rationally-oriented.  I'm actually kind
> of balanced on the classic/romantic continuum.  I've always been more
> in touch with my touchy-feely side than most guys.  I like to have both,
> science that is artful and art that makes philosophical sense.

Marsha:
I think of you as artist/philosopher.   


> As far as my mommy needs, I don't really have any.  This is I-Ronic because
> it's my mom's greatest problem - she always gave me lots of affirmation and
> love as a child, which made me self-sufficient with a strong ego that
> doesn't need her approval now that I'm an adult and frustrates the hell out
> of her.  Whereas my brother Ron, whom she didn't much like as a child, is
> very dependent upon her opinion, and thus easily manipulated and thus is
> now her favorite.
> 
> God life is funny!
> 
> Anyway, believe me, you don't wanna project yourself into MY mommy
> issues because they are messy.

Marsha:
You asked me how it made me feel.  During: quiet.  Afterword:  quite joyful.  



>>> That's what I'm always itching to know.  Pragmatic value.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Lots of pragmatic value, but you will need to experience it for yourself.
> 
> 
> John:
> 
> I mean pragmatic value in dialogue, in helping to get the other, in helping
> to formulate common understanding.

Marsha:
An unpatterned experience is a powerful reference on which to compare 
patterned experience.  Rather than an intellectual 'not this, not that', it is 
a directly experienced 'not this, not that'.  Insightful!   OOooohhhhhh!!!!!!   

It's a powerful experience.  I'm sure if I was studying with a 
knowledgeable guru he would tell me it was not so important, but on
my own it felt like I had a glimpse of a major not this and not that. 


>>> John:
>>> 
>>> Well we're rubbing up against my old problem with "the intellectual 
>>> level" again.  Because the way you people have got the "intellectual
>>> level" in a rationalistic and classically oriented box, you completely
>>> do away with the better half of human mental ability.  The romantic
>>> side, the artistic side.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> What's this "you people"?   "I" don't have anything mixed up.
> 
> 
> 
> John:
> 
> Well I do see you as leaning heavily away from the classical side of
> intellection and more toward the romantic side, so kudos there.  But, you
> do chime in with Bo in assessing the intellectual level itself as being
> SOM, and that to me is "doing completely away with the better half of
> human mentation".

Marsha:
That's strange because I spend quite a bit of time trying to analyze how 
my mind works.  I've noticed I can only be serious for so long, then I 
must break loose and do something outrageous.  And it is good to do so.  

I definitely agree with Bo that the Intellectual Level is comprised of 
patterns with a SOM base.  I think RMP has stated art requires patterns 
from all levels: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, and that 
seems to be so, with a large dose of heart.   In ZMM it was head, hands 
and heart, and it's beyond intellectual analysis is my bet.  


>>> These two sides have to be united, or the whole thing doesn't work.  
>>> It's very low quality to suffer under either ugly science or art that
>>> doesn't make any sense.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> I don't see things as you have them divided.
>> 
>  
>  
> John:
> 
> I don't think they should be, but they are by the assertion that SOM is the
> intellectual level.

Marsha:
The problem with the Intellectual Level is accepting its patterns as reality 
rather than a very useful tool.  It is why my unpatterned experiences have 
been so powerful.  Rather than "reality" intellectual patterns can be 
playful tools.  That dvd 'Between the Folds' is a perfect demonstration of 
scientists playing with intellectual patterns.  Very dynamic!!!  


> We see things differently.  That's a good thing.  That's how we can help
> each other.

Marsha:
At least celebrate each other.  


> 
>> 
>>> I can understand why some people feel like giving up.  I'm going to
>>> try and make a sensible argument why they shouldn't.  A hard task,
>>> but hey, if I'm gonna take on the label, better put on the shoes.
>> 
>> I've never seen Little Shop of Horrors or the GaGa girl.

Marsha:
The shoe reference confused me.    



> John:  Uhh.. me neither.  When I posted that, I was thinking of Dave T, and
> his announcement of giving up... and waves and particles and where they
> meet.
> 
> WaveDave has always been amongst my favorite posters on this forum.  
> The first to really dialogue with me when I first joined years ago, and
> author of some of really good stuff.  I've been wanting to discuss zoning
> as reality for some time, but I never really got around to it, and then he
> went and posted some really excellent ideas about it and I hope he
> returns.

Marsha:
The longing can cause frustration, but its with heart.  There have been 
weeks when I've been tempted to throw my computer into the lake.  Or 
at least a few books, but one goes through it.  Time away can be 
important.  I hope Dave returns too.   



> 
> longingly,
> 
> John



joyfully,

Marsha   
 
___