[MD] Stacks

[Magnus Berg]

Hi Mary

On 2010-08-08 14:40, Mary wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
>
> A nice discussion.  Thank you.

Quite, thanks.

> [Magnus before]
>> Yes, for me, reality is quality and is made of quality events and every
>> one of those requires a subject and an object, which in MoQese are both
>> patterns of value of the same level. I don't see much point in	
>> differentiating between subject, object and pattern of value. They are
>> always interchangeable in every quality event. It's is only in SOM that
>> the subject must be self-aware, whatever that means. But I sense quite
>> many here think that as well, that the subject in a quality event must
>> be some sort of "self".
>
> Subjects and objects are only patterns of value of the same level where the
> object is also an intellectual thought.  Are you saying you are an Idealist?

Oh no. I never said the object, nor the subject, had to be intellectual.

> If so, I understand your statement, since in that case, everything is in our
> heads, created by man alone and would thus be on the same level.  I don't
> think this is what you are saying, though.

Right.

> You are saying the iron filings could be a subject and the magnet an object?

And vice versa.

> That is not the same as Subject-Object Logic since iron filings do not
> think; however, for you to describe them that way is an example of
> Subject-Object Logic.

So what? Do you think it's SOM or not?

It doesn't really matter, because your contradiction in the paragraph 
above shows very well why the quality event of the MoQ is *not* the same 
as SOM's first division of subjects and objects.

When SOM talks of a subject, it means a thinking mind that is somehow 
capable of controlling its body. SOM has no idea how that control works 
though, which is why it has made that first division of reality into 
subjects and objects.

But when you transfer that SOM subject to the MoQ, the closest thing is 
the intellectual level. Every human being has such a subject. And just 
to make sure you understand this, there's no problem with reasoning 
about subjects and objects in MoQ. They're still there, they're just not 
the primary division of our reality. So I can talk about subjects and 
objects all I want without having to constantly be accused of SOM 
thinking and SOM logic. It's a bit tiring in the long run.

Anyway, that subject we're now talking about in MoQese is pretty easily 
recognized in a human. But as we get lower in the level ladder, that 
subject loses some of its subject-ness, as you said, "iron filings do 
not think". That, however, is not MoQs problem. It's just an indication 
of where that subject-ness comes from. Subject-ness as I use it here is 
SOMs version of subject, i.e. a thinking mind that can experience events 
and control the physical world via some magic connection. So, a subject 
of an intellectual level quality event has most if not all of it's 
subject-ness intact. But a lower level subject has less and less of that 
subject-ness left.

But one very interesting thing we can see lower down is that a part of 
this subject-ness pops up again in the quantum level (regardless of 
whether you want to call it a level or not). Suddenly we start to 
require an experiencer for an event to happen again, even in SOM-land. 
But MoQ is not surprised, it has always known that, all the way from the 
highest level to the lowest.

So even if iron filings do not think as a "proper" subject would, it's 
still a much more coherent world view to assume that every quality event 
in all levels always require one subject and one object. The "thinking" 
aspect of a subject is what has to go. And with the MoQ, it has gone.

> To be honest, I see the stacks analogy as a SOM approximation of the static
> levels model.  An imperfect approximation especially when it comes to the
> upward relationship.

Always this SOM, as I said, tiring.

The stacks are a way to connect seemingly different events but are 
really identical levels. For example, I and many other people with me, 
see the cell as a city with lots of organs just like a city. It would 
really be a flux if these two very similar things wasn't similar on some 
level. So, for my sake, I'd just be as happy to just call both a city 
and cell, social patterns of value. However, since many people are so 
abhorred at the thought to call something social that doesn't consist of 
people, I suggested the stacks to bridge that gap.

It has nothing to do with SOM, just me trying to show how powerful and 
universal the MoQ really is.

C'ya

	Magnus