[MD] MOQ Recursion

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Marsha]
We are suspended in language, but I would think that on this MD list it is
understood that 'metaphysics' is concerned with the nature of reality, and that
in discussing the MoQ we are discussing Reality as Quality. 

[Arlo]
Of course "metaphysics" is concerned with the "nature of reality". But it is
NOT reality itself. It is a MAP that attempts to define the indefinable.
Pirsig's map is a very high-quality map, but it is still a map.

According to Pirsig's map, the entirety of "reality" can be described as DQ and
SQ. So when someone says "the levels aren't patterns of value", its a gross
confusion of the map with the reality it describes. 

Or you can speculate about a third metaphysical category "levels" that exist
apart from DQ and SQ, but you better be able to deal with the untenable
position that puts you in. Or you can bury your head in the sand, as seems to
be the case.

[Marsha]
The baseless statement was your declaration of likeness between what you and
RMP think.

[Arlo]
I am open about where Pirsig and I disagree. But in the case of his
understanding that the SOL undermines the MOQ, I fully agree. And when one
examines the repeated need you all have to dodge simple questions, its no
wonder why he felt that way. 

In any event, my original point was that NO analogy capable of producing
meaning can escape its own analogous nature. Or, in my previous words, all
intellectual patterns powerful enough to be meaningful are inherently
recursive. 

Pirsig's metaphysics are a map, an intellectual pattern, an attempt to define
the indefinable, a pointer, a finger pointing at the moon... an analogy. There
is no issue with "self-containment", as this is the nature of ALL
representative systems. 

Ignoring the question "what type of pattern are the levels themselves?",
creating a long thread of evasions and dodges, may help you cling to an
inconsistent map, if that's what you choose, but that's low-quality... in my
opinion.

So back to that, Marsha, do you think the "levels" themselves are "patterns of
value"? Or do they exist apart from DQ/SQ? Are all "classifications" or
"categories" also independent of the DQ/SQ reality, or just those used by
Pirsig?