[MD] MOQ Recursion

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Magnus

10 Aug.

I had said:
> >"Refer to itself" is not the same as "containing itself"?

Magnus:
> Not usually, but for the intellectual level it is, because it contains
> only references (to other patterns). 

Here is our million miles difference. The MOQ's 4th. level has nothing 
to do with your "reference-to-other patterns" definition which is directly 
adopted from SOM's "intellect" term which means "the mental realm 
you are at when thinking or speaking about anything". You have to 
snap out of this illusion to enter  the MOQ where the said level has 
everything to do with degrading/controlling social value. It's this 
MORAL struggle that the MOQ is the about  and characterize all static 
levels.    

> Thinking is not required for my intellectual patterns, a note on a
> paper will do fine.

Don't you think the social reality (when it was "leading edge") people 
could make abstract signs on papyrus, clay tablets, walls and in 
general were as smart as ourselves? As I say below:..  

> >    This problem of trying to describe value in terms of substance
> >    has been the problem of a smaller container trying to contain a
> >    larger one. Value is not a subspecies of substance. Substance is
> >    a subspecies of value. When you reverse the containment process
> >    and define substance in terms of value the mystery disappears:
> >    substance is a 'stable pattern of inorganic values.' The problem
> >    then disappears. The world of objects and the world of values are
> >    unified.  

Magnus again:  
> Is that what you call big? Yes, of course a smaller container can't
> contain a larger one, but you have to show that one container *is* the
> larger one, then you can apply the container logic.

If you don't see the MOQ as bigger than its levels you need to check 
your logical faculty.

> And regarding the MoQ and the intellectual level, since the MoQ *is*
> an intellectual pattern, it can simply refer to the intellectual
> level. So no container logic is necessary.

The MOQ as an intellectual pattern is the logical goof that Pirsig 
himself performed after pointing to the container logic. And what the 
SOMists grab as "gefundenes fressen".   

> >"Description in terms of substance" = SOM =  the intellectual level,
> >cannot contain the MOQ which is "description in terms of Quality".
> >Get it?    

> Ah, so a description of a bird can't contain a description of the
> elephant on which the bird sits and eats? Because the elephant is
> bigger than the bird??

What trite and childish word-play. Go join Arlo!

> Come on! Both are *descriptions*. A description can refer to, i.e.
> contain, any other description because intellectual patterns are
> recursive. It's not ugly, or something we should avoid. It's just one
> of the aspects of the intellectual level that makes it so powerful.

When Pirsig says "description in terms of ..." he means language used 
to describe, but not language in itself as the 4th level. Language is 
from deep inside the 3rd. level when it was used to "describe reality in 
terms of  social value". Then the 4th level that began describing reality 
in terms of "substance" (as P.says meaning "in terms of objectivity or 
rationality) .   

> >Shows the same fallacy, namely that "using the intellectual level" to
> > you spells using our language-conveyed intelligence, and with such a
> > grand mistake your are lost MOQ-wise.
 
> No, I have just seen the MoQ levels outside of your confined human
> perspective stack.

Muster your attention. To you Q-intellect represents the  non human - 
objective - perspective that looked back on the past as confined inside 
the subjective perspective  Now, enter the MOQ that sees all from the 
DQ/SQ (moral) perspective and has intellect a static stage which 
perspective is the objective-over-subjective one. Now one sees 
intellect's desperate need to see the MOQ as an intellectual pattern, 
intellect is a static stage that can't change its spots and from there the 
"free" MOQ looks like a return to the human perspective and must be 
confined inside intellect where it can be mutilated to fit the S/O matrix. 
But no longer can intellect keep the MOQ confined, after more than 
ten years struggle and thanks to a little group it's safe. Your own 
peculiar "stack" idea - part of making the MOQ an objective, scientific 
tool - has died, MOQ's own immune system spotted it as foreign. 

Bodvar