[MD] MOQ/BOC

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 6:15 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:
> [Dan]
> Looking to the four levels of the MOQ, it seems that as we move from the lower
> levels to the upper we move from the general to the particular. Just as every
> biological pattern of value is also an inorganic pattern but not all inorganic
> patterns are biological, every social pattern is an intellectual pattern but
> not all intellectual patterns are social."
>
> [John]
> Surely you meant to say the opposite.  All intellectual patterns are
> necessarily social, but not all social patterns are intellectual.  Just as all
> social patterns are also biological, but not all biological patterns are social
> in the way we mean social.
>
> [Arlo]
> Hi Dan. I think what John noticed here, and I see it too, is that in your
> example you say compare BIOLOGICAL to INORGANIC (a DOWNWARD comparison), and
> then say this is analogous to SOCIAL to INTELLECTUAL (an UPWARD comparison).

Hi Arlo
Thank you for the reply. I take this of course from the Robert Pirsig
letter to Paul Turner. To be honest, parts of this have troubled me
and I welcome an opportunity to perhaps get into it more deeply.

Actually, it is an upward comparison that I had in mind. My words may
not reflect that. Biological patterns grow out of inorganic patterns.
All biological patterns are also inorganic. They are composed of
molecules. But not all inorganic patterns are social. Social patterns
grow out of biological patterns. They are composed of thoughts but the
thoughts reside in biological patterns. All social patterns are
biological, but not all biological patterns are social. Intellectual
patterns grow out of social patterns.

>
> You say, "Just as every biological pattern of value is also an inorganic
> pattern but not all inorganic patterns are biological"...
>
> Downward.
>
> And then, "... as every social pattern is an intellectual pattern but not all
> intellectual patterns are social"...
>
> Upward.
>
> Its saying, in effect, BIOLOGICAL is to INORGANIC as SOCIAL is to INTELLECTUAL,
> and this is wrong.
>
> BIOLOGICAL (higher) is to INORGANIC (lower) as INTELLECTUAL (higher) is to
> SOCIAL (lower).
>
> All BIOLOGICAL (higher) patterns are also INORGANIC (lower) patterns, just as
> All INTELLECTUAL (higher) patterns are also SOCIAL (lower) patterns.
>
> Extended, all BIOLOGICAL (higher) patterns are also INORGANIC (lower patterns)
> but not all INORGANIC (lower) patterns are BIOLOGICAL (higher) patterns.

Dan:
For sake of clarity I would drop the higher and lower but that's just
me. All life is composed of matter. We agree on that, I take it.

>
> And, all INTELLECTUAL (higher) patterns are also SOCIAL (lower patterns) but
> not all SOCIAL (lower) patterns are INTELLECTUAL (higher) patterns.

Dan:
First of all, let's say just for the sake of clarity that intellect is
the same as thinking. It is a process of discrimination. Ideas. So
what I see you saying is that some social patterns are not ideas. I am
a bit confused. What are they then? And if we cannot discriminate
them, how do we even know about them? Examples might help.

Thank you,

Dan

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