[MD] Social level for humans only

[Andre Broersen]

Magnus to Andre:

I mean, how*is*  the social level defined in Lila anyway?

Andre:
Hi Magnus and All, I am not sure if the social level is clearly defined in LILA. Anthony, in his PhD, refers to the SODV paper where Pirsig suggests that social quality patterns (hence the level)are the 'patterns of culture that the anthropologist and sociologist study'.(SODV,p14)

Anthony goes on to clarify that 'social patterns...refer only to behaviour that is learnt through imitation (such as rituals and social custom) rather than 'hard-wired' genetic behaviour ( as, for instance, observed in ant colonies),(p81).

Therefore is seems that Pirsig restricts the social to human behaviour. That is, social behaviour is learnt and biological behaviour is, from this social perspective, if you like, learned to be recognized, controlled and channeled into socially approved ways and means of expression.(thanks dmb for the Freudian perspective and your encouragement).

Magnus:
However, what I tried to do was to find that definition by making
simpler and simpler societies and then see what that specific trait was
that puts a society in a morally higher level than biology.

Andre:
I am not sure if it is helpful to use a 'reductionist' approach in the MOQ to 'explain' or to reach a
'formal definition' of a level other than those which have been provided by Pirsig himself (which is what you appear to be looking for). And even then Pirsig suggests 'cutting off points' to retain a meaningful context about which discussion can take place.

Also, mention has been made by Dan and Arlo in earlier posts that some social patterns are biological but not all biological patterns are social.(hope I got this right, off the top of me head).

Magnus:
But then, how is it possible that a human being can
store all those intellectual patterns inside its brain? Because even
Pirsig have said that for example the MoQ,*is*  an intellectual pattern.
So, how is it possible that a person can have the MoQ in its brain if he
doesn't support intellectual patterns?

Andre:
This is a little bit beyond me Magnus. I have no idea what you are referring to. Intellectual patterns 'inside its brain'...the MOQ in its brain??.
Long ago I watched a documentary about the search for Einstein's brain. It was found in the fridge of some scientist. No matter how hard we looked into it...there was no trace of the magic formulae. It was even cut open but alas...many disappointments...nothing special about the brain (normal size, normal weight, etc).

Magnus:
These are the impossible questions that we have to deal with.

Andre:
I wish you the best of luck finding the answers Magnus.

Magnus:
Also, a society of sand grains? Just the example shows that he hasn't
really thought about a good definition of social value, nor did he think
about the level dependency.

Andre:
I think Pirsig has thought of a very workeable 'definition' of social value.(see my comment above and also dmb's post). And it was not to 'ridicule' you Magnus...just to show the loss of meaning of the idea of 'social' when extending it to levels it really does not belong to.

Magnus:
What is "this" in this context. What should be clear?

Andre:
That there are 'cutting-off points' to retain clarity of meaning.

Magnus:
If you find crisp and clear answers to those, I'm all ears.

Andre:
I am afraid that the DQ/sq will never give you these Magnus. And even if you are able to extract a few of them, they are only provisional.