[MD] Social level for humans only

[Andre Broersen]

Magnus to Andre:

Right, it is not clearly defined. Only by loose analogies and examples.
But as soon as you try to generalize those analogies and examples into
anything that looks like a definition, like dmb did yesterday, then lots
of other societies fits in as well.

Andre:
I don't want to be cocky Magnus but can you define yourself? Just try to tell the person at the other end of the table who asks:'Now tell me Mr. Magnus, who are you?' Can you fully exhaust a description of the being that is you in words, or gestures or rhythm or scientific parlance?

Sounds like you do want a crisp and clear definition.

Magnus:
Anthony has mistaken the int-soc border with the soc-bio border.It is the social value that makes ants carry all that food and other stuff to the hill, if each ant was ruled by its biological values, he would run off and care only for himself.

Andre:
With all due respect it seems you have a very narrow idea about biological patterns of value.

Magnus:
Don't you think Pirsig took the reductionist approach in Lila, or in ZMM?

Andre:
I have always understood that ZMM employed an inductive and LILA a 
deductive method.

Magnus:

How else would he have reached the levels, and the DQ/SQ division
in the first place? How else are we to investigate it further? Are we to
just sit like religious fanatics and read and re-read the books over and
over again?

Andre:
The how question is adequately answered in both books I think. Pirsig spends some considerable time in LILA explaining how he arrived at the levels.  From experience I have learned that if I do not 'empty my teacup' upon another reading I will end up having learned nothing new. And religion has little to do with it.

Magnus:
I don't start with inventing a meaning, and THEN start dividing the world to comply with the meaning.

Andre:
Pirsig started with Quality (ZMM) and fitted the MOQ (LILA) to 'comply' with Quality.

Magnus:
The division of the world has to*work*. If it doesn't, change it. And
as it is described in Lila, it simply*does not work*.

Andre:
This is your reading.

Magnus:
If I were to make a program that simulated the world using the divisions described in
Lila, the program would crash because of the built-in inconsistencies. It's as simple as that.

Andre:
Thing is that the MOQ is a finger pointing to... and, fortunately the finger is not pointing to a program designed by you...it would not be able to respond to DQ...no program can or does.

Magnus:
Where do you think you store the information you read in a paper, or the
MoQ that you have read in Lila? In your behind?

Andre:
Well, not sure about the last bit but I do honestly not know this Magnus. I do not know enough about the workings of the brain. What I can say is that consciousness is a function,an event. To put it in James' terms a 'knowing' which is reproduced from moment to moment with the aid (I suppose) of sq, (the analogues already in place) as such. The non-dualism event of knower and known precedes this event. Where exactly this is taking place (or stored for that matter) I do not know, but my hunch is that it is stored at all sq 'levels' which, at the moment the event is taking place are 'suspended'. I am only guessing but it sounds right for me.

You Magnus appear to me to keep the division between 'in here' and 'out there' (the old SOM) which imho leads to some strange conclusions.

Magnus:
To me, it only reinforces my view that intellectual patterns are stored
using the language of his brain.

Andre:
This is an example of what I mean. Language is a social pattern of value and used also for intellectual purposes. Does the brain HAVE its own language?

Magnus:
Don't you worry about me. I have already solved them 12 years ago. I'm a
bit worried about the rest here though, who still doesn't even realize
there*is*  a problem. Hence my complaints about ostrich poses.

Andre:
You are beginning to sound like Bodvar.

Magnus:
And here's the plastic moon again I mentioned in my last post,
"provisional". You're only playing with a plastic toy. I'm trying to
find the real deal. I have no idea why you bother with toys, I wouldn't.

Andre:
A plastic toy? I am not only playing with inorganic patterns Magnus.

And you want to find the 'real deal'? Sounds like a socio-political-economic conspiracy plot you are trying to unravel. Now THAT I think is plastic.

Stay in touch!