[MD] Theocracy, Secularism, and Democracy

[Steven Peterson]

Hi Matt,

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Matt Kundert
<pirsigaffliction at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When we think about why building a Muslim community center there may
>> be regarded as objectionable (even though it ought not be prohibited)
>> is that there doesn't seem to be moderate Islam of the sort where
>> there are Muslim leaders willing to come out and say that Salmon
>> Rushdie and apostates in general ought not be killed or to stop
>> apologizing for those threatening the lives of cartoonists.  Most
>> Muslim's understanding of Islam is actually a very real and present
>> danger to religious freedom.
>
> Really?  My sense of the world is opposite that.  Harris has a point, and saying "everyone's got extremists" too soon does tend to white-wash what real world choices we do need to make in distinguishing practically between different practices.  But my sense of the Islamic community is not that moderate Islam is a small fraction, and militaristic Islam a large one (to distinguish from your use of "militant").  I have no polls or sophisticated analysis/evidence to back up that sense, but I tend to be wary of things too close to talking points that came from an ideological-machine intent on generating fear.  I don't think you or Harris care for that, but I also can't say I'm generally impressed by lines of reasoning that find the community center objectionable.

Steve:

I can understand why people would think it is offensive as presented
as a Mosque at ground zero given that the attack was made in the name
of Islam, but I also think that characterization was a bit of
"Southern Strategery" knowing that the liberals would defend religious
freedom and many would find that defense offensive. They are playing
on bigotry as usual, but I don't think one _has_ to be bigoted toward
Muslims to reason that the Twin Towers was a symbolic attack in the
name of Islam and that building a Mosque at the sight will be regarded
in certain circles seeking the destruction of America as another
symbolic victory, but I am willing to let them have that victory claim
as a small price to pay for religious freedom.

Personally, I don't care. It sounds like a YMCA or JCC or something
once you look into it. Big deal even if it were a Mosque unless we
ourselves blow it up into a big symbolic deal .

Who benefits from all this silly bickering over a Mosque?  Who always
benefits? (Ok, I've been reading Howard Zinn lately.)




>Religion, like politics and all other social and intellectual patterns, are local, and I doubt growing up an American Muslim will make you more disposed to bombing buildings, just so long as we take care of the other "lo
>  cal" bits surrounding (food to eat, good education, etc.).
>
> I'm disposed to adapting Rorty's line: "take care of freedom, and [religion] will take care of itself."  Always understanding, of course, that by "freedom" isn't just meant the negative liberty that the libertarian-esque right reduces it to.



Steve:
In the US Muslims are mostly moderate (moderate by Muslims standards that is).

Pew Poll in 2007
(Reuters) - About one-quarter of young American Muslims believe to
some extent that suicide bombings can be justified to defend Islam,
while nearly 80 percent of all U.S. Muslims reject such attacks, a
survey showed on Tuesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2244293620070522

While there is something to say about freedom, at the same time I
think religious beliefs do matter. When well-educated middle-class
Muslims claim that what motivates them to fly planes into billings or
a strap a bomb to themselves is love of martyrdom, I think we ought to
believe them or at least take seriously the possibility that people
actually believe what they say they believe. There is something to the
economic oppression thing but there is real religious oppression going
on too.

Let's consider all the rioting over cartoons and former free-loving
hippie Cat Steven's comments on being asked about Salman Rushdie:

"Under Islamic Law, the ruling regarding blasphemy is quite clear; the
person found guilty of it must be put to death. Only under certain
circumstances can repentance be accepted.... The fact is that as far
as the application of Islamic Law and the implementation of full
Islamic way of life in Britain is concerned, Muslims realize that
there is very little chance of that happening in the near future. But
that shouldn't stop us from trying to improve the situation and
presenting the Islamic viewpoint wherever and whenever possible. That
is the duty of every Muslim..."