[MD] Speed of Lighting, Roar of thunder...

[Krimel]

> [Magnus]
> I'm confused, first you agree with Frank who said:
>
> [Krimel]
> Yes, you are...

[Krimel]
It's worse than I thought. 
Shit has existed since the big bang. 
We were called in to name that shit.
Shit is ancient. Our names for it are new.
When we see a pattern we name it.
Seeing is perception.
Naming is conception

[Magnus]
So you weren't actually so serious about the STFU after all?

[Krimel]
... so let's deconstruct...
_____________________________________________
>>FRANK!
>> Perspectives, worlds, real worlds, being, becoming are human concepts 
>> ( patterns ). Stepping out of the human world is a human concept ( 
>> pattern ).No one gets outta here alive, bubba. Not getting outta here 
>> alive is a human concept ( pattern ).

[Krimel]
True dat!
Life without concepts is life on life support.
For those who object, I recommend advanced directives.
If you want to stay plugged in, you are going to have be engaged.
The decision isn't between concept and no-concept... 
It's a matter of which concepts.

So yeah, decision, concept and no-concept are concepts. Either grab one or
STFU.
______________________________________________

First: As I recall Frank is Ron (Xacto) in ultra-cool sarcastic mode. 
(See his awesome post flushing post. OMG that was good!)

So the proposer of the Kulpian Illusion points out that whatever the "real
world" is; we live, not with "it," but with our conceptions of "it."

I am on board with that. I say in agreement, that we have no choice but to
create and use concepts to describe "Shit Happening." 
We are never arguing about "Shit". 
We argue about our concepts of "Shit"
We don't give a shit about "Shit" 
We care about our concepts of "Shit"

Some, mainly Marsha, seem to think, "meh," to ALL concepts. You can take
than or leave them. They are illusions in the sense of falsity, dreams,
fake, chicanery. I say and I think Ron agrees that illusions are not false
at all. They are alternative points of view. 
Point of View (POV) is our constant companion. While we live, we have at
least one.

So I said:
"Life without concepts is life on life support."
In other words without concepts, we are comatose.
So either pick a set of concepts and use them or Shut the Fuck Up and sip
your saline drip.

Frank pointed out that STFU is also a concept to which I should have STFU,
but since that was too obvious, I pointed out, I think, that STFU is a
concept we direct towards other and rarely apply to ourselves.

> [Krimel]
> Isn't this the point of Pirsig's gravity example? Gravity is a signifier
> that points to a set of patterns in the world. I do believe that things
fell
> to earth prior to Newton and at more or less that same accelerating rate
> that he clocked. But the concept of gravity was a new thing under the sun
> when he wrote it down.

[Magnus]
I'm actually not sure it was the point of Pirsig's gravity example. I 
mean, he didn't have the tools of the levels when he wrote that in ZMM. 
To me, it's just a clear cut example of the creation of an intellectual 
pattern, the concept, or theory of gravity in this case.

Gravity, on the other hand, is an inorganic pattern that has existed 
since the big bang. I have no idea why people would want to deny that 
when it's so plain to see the connection.

[Krimel]
I think that actually was the point of Pirsig's example. 
The levels do buttkiss to improve upon the notion.

[Magnus]
What I'm saying is that since we have this tool of the levels, and since 
it *is* a rather good fit for dividing this undefined which is going on 
outside our concepts of it, why not try to make it a better fit?

[Krimel]
Because people have been cutting themselves on those tools for 10 years.
I'd rather be on life support that continue that tradition.

[Magnus]
In fact, why assume that whatever is going on is more complicated than 
it has to be? If nobody is here designing it, how *could* it be very 
complicated? And isn't the levels an example of the most simple 
construction? One static level does whatever it can using the static 
rules it has to work with, and then when that level is done and reaches 
a kind of static state, then the next level can work with that and 
create more dynamic things.

I do *not* understand the rationale for not even trying to make that 
better fit.

[Krimel]
As I recall I have mentioned before that I carry a Leatherman Squirt in my
pocket all the time. It has a knife, file, pliers screwdrivers etc. It is
really handy for fixing lots of small stuff in a pinch. But if I spent most
of my time fixing small stuff, The Squirt would suck. I would need more
specialized tools. Perhaps a box full of them. Since I don't need to fix
shit that often, I don't carry a box of tools. I pack the Squirt.

I don't tell handymen they are fools for over complicating to problem. But
that is partly because, the way the Squirt is designed, I have cut myself
with it way too many times.

> [Magnus]
> I think you need to decide which. You seem to be taking both sides now.
>
> [Krimel]
> I decided long ago but despite what anyone tells you I hold open the
> possibility of changing my view. Never-the-less this is one of my chief
> bitches against the AWGI faction.

[Magnus]
Decided long ago? But just the other day you underlined one side with 
STFU, and today you conceded to the other.

[Krimel]
I decided to carry the Squirt because after years of carrying a Leatherman
Juice, I decided to was too big, too much baggage. When I carried the Juice,
I did a lot of computer repair and it was very good for that. 

I try to keep my toolkit as simple and as light as possible but I almost
always have one with me. I am uncomfortable flying because Homeland Security
forces me to check the tools I love.

At present I love the Squirt.
In the past I loved the Juice.
I choose, moment to moment, which tool works for the tasks at hand.
At the level of tools I have many lovers.

[Magnus]
AWGI?
After Work Genuine Intelligence
All World's Gone Insane
All Who God Invented

No, I give up. What?

[Krimel]
In a tirade a while back gav appealed to: "All Who Get It."

I took that to mean the mystical eastern philosophy faction of the MoQ so to
simplify, I call them AW GIs, as in Awe Gee, we are one with the universe!!!

I think the problem with the AWGIs is that they think the MoQ should unite
east and west by having everyone convert to Buddhism. Kind of like seeing
the similarity between "cause" and "preference" and thinking that means
atoms are decision makers. Or seeing the Romantic/Classic split as an
invitation to spend your life singing Kumbaya.

I see the resolution of those opposites in the opposite way. I see the
beauty in a well sculptured grill. But more importantly I see the resolution
of East and West in the Kulpian account of Illusion or Maya. 

Not this, not that but something...