[MD] Is this the inadequacy of the MOQ?

[118]

Hi Marsha,
I think you are being a little confusing.  Your terms seem to contradict.  I
know you understand what you are talking about, but the expression leaves on
mystified.  Some comments below on your reply to Tim.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:17 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> [Tim]

 THe collection is not casual; there is some
> > not-so-changing consistency through it all.
>
> Marsha:
> Collection - many - one's static value history.
>
> Please described  that not-so-changing consistency?  I have never
> found it such.
>
> [Mark]
I know you are trying to press a point here Marsha, but as you describe it,
we could not function.  We tie things together, we have to.  Such tying is
real, it's what we do.  Our bodies seem the same from moment to moment.
 Every moment cannot be a blank slate.  So memory creates
not-so-everchanging consistency.  If memory is not real, then we have a
problem with the definition of real.  Are you a different person every
moment?  I know the I does not exist if you don't want it to, but it sure is
useful.  In terms of dismissing SOM in an objective way, we can either say
that we do not exist, or we are everything.  Both work and I prefer the
latter (at least today).

>
> > [Tim]
> > there is still a little nit that I picked before, regarding 'flowing':
> > that this might be too restrictive a term; But I think this is off topic
> > now.
>
> Marsha:
> Flowing is an analogy.  What word do you prefer.
>

[Mark]
How about interchanging?  A stream has to flow past something, what is that
something?

>
>
> > [Tim]
> > also, while I'm at it, I wonder why you have both 'ever-changing' and
> > 'impermanent', specifically, why do you insist on the latter?
>
> Marsha:
> A pattern event is always different, from individual to individual, across
> time, and within the DQ field.  Granted time and space and change are
> givens, but I don't know how to talk without assuming them.  I suppose
> that's the difficulty with discussing superposition and entanglement too,
> The concepts are beyond our metaphysical assumptions and linguistic
> rules.  And why I get frustrated speaking of unpatterned experiences.
>
> Impermanent because an experience/event has a beginning, a middle
> and an end.
>

[Mark]
I think the question was one about redundancy.  Ever changing requires
impermanency.  If you are stating that an experience is finite, when does it
begin, and when does it end?  Are we talking about birth and death, or
something more fundamental?

Like you say, the concept of ever-changing requires some solid reference to
measure against.  If there is no solid reference, we cannot conclude that
things are ever-changing.  We can consider ever-changing to be static, but
if ever-changing changes, will it not become permanent?  This is where your
words are confusing.

>
> [Tim]
> > Anyway, to hint at my answer, even if I don't end up 'having a problem'
> > with your description, I think I will prefer one that mentions 'choice'
> > and 'will', as I see these as the two most vital prerogatives of the
> > 'I'.  Further, it is not the static patterns that choose and will, nor
> > is it so much the 'collection'... where do choice and will come from in
> > your description?
>
> [Marsha]

> Choice?  Like in freewill?  Do you want choice in every event?  Do you
> want to choose when to breath?  What category of choice do you prefer
> to make?  How many possible mental events happen in a minute?
>
> For me, awareness allows influencing an event.
>

[Mark]
Either you allow choice at every event, or you allow no choice.  There
cannot be some things that contain choice and others that don't.  If there
is, where does this magic line appear?  If you are speaking of conscious
choice, what is it that is making that choice?  Where is your chooser?

>
>
> > And about what you opposed your description with (in connection with
> > your description): mu.
>
> Nothing to say in opposition to someone's mu.  These are not easy
> issues.
>

[Mark]
Mu

>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>