[MD] Philosophy and Abstraction

[John Carl]

Matt and others,

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Matt Kundert <pirsigaffliction at hotmail.com
> wrote:

>
> Matt:
> Marsha's delimiting of the MoQ as a kind of epistemological
> relativism, and not cultural or moral, is a great step in definition,
> in particular her addendum that this _understanding_ of relativity
> is itself an important plank in who we culturally are.  It is what
> Isaiah Berlin basically laid out as the way of democracy versus the
> way of totalitarianism in his famous "Two Concepts of Liberty."
>
> The only place where I, and presumably Steve, back away is that
> while we agree with the substance of what Marsha calls
> epistemological relativism, we don't feel the force of the "should"
> in (1) and don't see the point of "delusion" in (3).  We have
> different vocabularies for negotiating the issues and label-wars of
> philosophical discussion.  However, the underlying content--when
> we push aside the idiosyncratic differences in stating points--is a
> Pirsigian and Jamesian one.  (And Rortyan.)
>
> Matt
>

In its essence, I'd argue also a Roycean.  But my claim (from observation
and Kuklick's)   that Royce is very close to James makes this a given.

 "in its epistemological sense, idealism involves a theory of the nature of
our human knowledge, and various decidedly different theories are called by
this name in view of one common feature, namely, the stress that they lay
upon the subjectivity of a larger or smaller portion of what pretends to be
our knowledge of things. But in it's  metaphysical sense, idealism is a
theory as to the nature of the real world, however we may come to know that
nature."

Royce, the Spirit of Modern Philosophy

This helped me a lot to see where we might have misunderstandings, and
honestly, if there's any philosophical term which has lots of room for
misunderstanding, it's "idealism" - which  covers a lot of territory.
 However, Royce's distinction right here really helps us clarify what it
means for the MoQ to be a "metaphysical idealism" as opposed to an
epistemological one - derived from pre-assumed subjectivity that amounts to
getting gored by one of the horns.  But at the same time, my continued
insistence that Royce was saying something not only similar, but exactly
congruent to what Pirsig was saying is supported by that last sentence.
 "Quality is Reality" is a theory as to the nature of the real world,
however we may come to know that nature.

The MoQ as an epistemological relativism and metaphysical Idealism.  Them's
my guns and I'm stickin' to 'em.

John