[MD] What does Pirsig mean by metaphysics?

Tue Feb 2 10:21:38 PST 2010

John said to dmb:
Well I guess I'm gonna just do like David T. this afternoon and sorta wing it here without overthinking my reply. I can do that, at times -  overthink.

dmb says:

Well, in this case your problem is definitely NOT too much thinking. If you look at the post again I think you'll clearly see that the joke was on me. I was, in effect, calling myself an asshole. See it works like this... I explain how projection means that people who criticize others are really criticizing themselves and then I followed that with conspicuously undeserved criticism. 

I mean, you'd probably have a better feel for the tone of that post if you read it out loud while doing your best Jon Stewart impression and breathing helium. That's about where I was at when I wrote it. 

Jeez. Overreact much?

> 
> Who'd-a thunk?
> 
> I'll address the last part of your missive first, respond back upside down
> Chinese style.  The last part of any message sticks in your brain most. The
> last word of your message was "asshole".
> 
> I don't recall ever calling anyone an "asshole".  For one thing, Lu reads
> this forum and she'd smack me proper upside the head.  Doesn't like foul
> language, our lu.
> 
> That kind of talk is really more your style than mine David, but there's a
> ring of truth to your accusation because even if I haven't used that exact
> terminology, I've led to believe that that is in fact, my opinion of the
> matter.
> 
> 
> Second, your assertion of the existence of "projection" is something I
> consider a great deal. It's something one sees a great deal in this life,
> and after a while you almost come to expect it in others.  Usually, you're
> not disappointed in the expectation, although we always are in the results.
>  But I don't think I'm projecting any of my own problems onto my judgement
> of you Dave.  I haven't anything to judge you by but your word.  And it's
> not just me.  Somebody mentioned "could this be a kinder, gentler DMB?"
>  That wouldn't get mentioned if it weren't a shocking new development.
>  You've exhibited in the past a deal of intellectual bullying that would
> make the Chairman blush, and you've used arguments of appeal to authority in
> a way that would make Socrates mutter and scowl.  If you're sorry for your
> sins, say so.  Not to me of course.  I was just a bystander to all this.
>  The only gripe I have against you is the lack of dialogue on your part,
> that I came here for in the first place.  Royce and James, back at it again.
>  What fun we could have.
> 
> The part about getting out of a loop of negativity rang my bell.  It
> coincides with my refutation of Santayana's most quoted: Those who cannot
> remember the past... blah blah.
> 
> I'll repeat my reformulation, slightly differently.    Those who can't let
> the past slide are doomed to live it forever.
> 
> References to the way things are in the movies always leave me cold; blaming
> mediated reality as the cause of the spread of objectivism like I do... but
> whatever.
> 
> Me being open to being judged by others... is like a "duh" thing to my mind.
>  I feel pretty open about who I am.  Wanna know my dark secrets?  The smell
> of my bowel movements?  I don't care if my medical records are posted on the
> internet or all my secrets and neurosis are discussed in public.  It's kinda
> flattering, if you think about it.  Go ahead.  Judge me.  Make my day.  I'm
> completely open to it.  In fact, I encourage judgement.  Taste for yourself
> what is good and what is not good in everyone and everything. I think we
> should be constantly judging and constantly judged.  Judgement is just
> apprehension of Quality, after all.
> 
> And Look!  We're back to the beginning and right on topic too.
> 
> 
> >
> > dmb says:
> > Damn straight. We can't function without making judgements and we need to
> > make them all day long, everyday. This is what kills me about relativism.
> > It's so obvious at odds with...  with.... with... EVERY moment of my
> > experience.
> >
> 
> 
> Ok, how does relativism obviate judgement?  Maybe there's a technical
> definition because otherwise I see a lot of pitfalls for ambiguities in that
> conflict.  I'll stick with what I told Marsha earlier, All truths are
> equally created.  Your truth that "We can't function without making
> judgements" is a truth created by your interpretation of Quality.
> 
> I think there is a bigger problem with stark individualism, SOM carving up
> tribes into weak individual beings with nothing to bond or compare with but
> mediated reality.  But that's my rant.
> 
> 
> >
> > The aphorism is not really about that, though, is it? I think it's about
> > about compassion. I mean, on one level it just means, "hey, be nice."
> >
> >
> 
> Yeah, well if this is advice you subtly mean to me Dave, I am nice.  It is
> not hard for me, it is in my nature.  I can be mean too, but I obviously
> like nice better.  So I will  if you will.
> 
> Play nice, that is.
> 
> 
> John sharing space in the sandbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > And maybe there's a little piece of wisdom hidden in there too. "Lest ye be
> > judged". Hmmmm. Maybe one thing it means is that overly critical and
> > unforgiving attitudes toward others tend to come right back at you. I don't
> > just mean that you have to take your turn getting judged by others, although
> > that can happen too, especially in the movies, but also that you end up
> > applying these critical standards to your self. Then you start beating your
> > self up for all kinds of infractions. You know, mentally beating yourself
> > up. So maybe the saying is about NOT getting into a loop of negativity. Give
> > the other guy a break and you end up giving yourself a break. You know?
> >
> > There's also the idea of projection. The saying could be a kind of
> > recognition of that. This is basically a more potent version of the loop
> > thing. The idea here is that we can't bear to face certain things about
> > ourselves and so our most horrifying traits are projected onto the other guy
> > the way a movie is projected onto the big white screen. On this view, these
> > negative assessments only SEEM to be about somebody other than you but they
> > never are. Or at least, as the kids might put it, "it takes one to know
> > one". Think about that next time you call somebody an asshole.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > dmb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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