[MD] Intellect's Symposium

[MarshaV]

Gav,

If you are asking me, Absolute is beyond my comprehension;  Quality 
is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable 

Marsha




On Feb 6, 2010, at 6:30 PM, gav wrote:

> plato: good is relative; truth is absolute
> pirsig: truth is relative; good is absolute
> 
> is this summary accurate?
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 7/2/10, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Intellect's Symposium
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Received: Sunday, 7 February, 2010, 9:55 AM
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha said:
>> Here's is a broad definition of relativism by Ugo Zilioli:
>> "Statements in a certain domain can be deemed correct or
>> incorrect only relative to some framework"
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> Okay. That's a very vague version of the specific case I
>> just made, which was relativism as it relates to linguistic
>> contexts. I believe that definition is far too general to be
>> meaningful here AND it comes from a defender of relativism.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha said:
>> Appealing to the authority of 'most postmodernists?' 
>> Is this the 'case' you made? 
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> Authority? I don't know what you're talking about. I merely
>> described the general position held by postmodern thinks in
>> addition to the particular position held by a specific
>> thinker. Your objections and questions seem increasingly
>> insincere, like you're trying to complicate simple things on
>> purpose. Why?
>> dmb had said:
>> As I understand it, the MOQ agrees with contextualism
>> (we're suspended in language) and it agrees that these
>> contexts are constructed (analogy upon analogy) but it says
>> these contexts are not constructed arbitrarily (Quality is
>> not arbitrary or capricious) and the pragmatic theory of
>> truth does not abandon empirical restraints (it has to agree
>> with experience and function in experience). These
>> non-linguistic constraints distinguish the MOQ from this
>> relativism. 
>> 
>> Marsha replied:
>> Where does the MoQ agree with
>> contextualism?   I thought the MoQ agreed
>> with Protagoras' Measure Doctrine.  Arbitrary and
>> capricious?  Is 'arbitrary and capricious' your
>> definition of relativism?
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> 
>> All of the stuff I put in parentheses references Pirsig
>> quotes. I can't tell you what page it is where Pirsig agrees
>> with the notion that "we're suspended in language", where
>> Pirsig says our world is built of analogies, where Pirsig
>> says that Quality is "not arbitrary or capricious". But
>> you've seen them. You know they're in there. And how can you
>> ask about the measure doctrine as if I hadn't just quoted
>> Pirsig on that? He said virtue "was absolutely central to
>> their teaching, but how are you going to teach virtue if you
>> teach the relativity of all ethical ideas?" and "QUALITY!
>> VIRTUE! DHARMA! THAT is what the Sophists were teaching! NOT
>> ethical relativism."?
>> 
>> Marsha said:
>> There is only one kind of truth individuals have knowledge
>> of and that is static quality, and that is relative to the
>> "different static pattern of life history" and the immediate
>> direct experience.   As I understand it, the
>> MoQ agrees with relativism (relative to experience).
>> 
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> 
>> Well I don't know how to distinguish that from solipsism or
>> plain old narcissism. I don't understand how you can
>> relativism out of this stuff when Pirsig is so plainly and
>> explicitly saying that the Sophists were teaching Quality
>> and "not ethical relativism". Especially since he's saying
>> that just as the central quest of the whole book is finally
>> resolved.
>> 
>> 
>> But you are at a distinct advantage being a relativist
>> because that means you can't really be wrong about
>> relativism or anything else. Must be nice. Maybe I should
>> convert and then I can just respond to objections by saying,
>> "well, it's true for me" or "it's true in my context".
>> That'll be so much easier. Ah, I feel relieved of a great
>> burden already. Thanks Marsha.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>    
>>         
>>           
>>   
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> 
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