[MD] Intellect's Symposium

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Mark Smit

7 Feb. you  wrote to DMB:

> For the record, Magnus was referring to little old me (I think).  I
> have tried to set Magnus straight.  And, for the record, Quality is
> fixed, it's expression in terms of evolution is not.  Do not confuse
> the two.  If Quality is reality, then you are saying that Reality is
> not fixed.  Even if Reality is everchanging, that does not mean that
> it is not Reality.  We are talking about absolutes here.  Even an
> ever-changing perception can be absolute in its change.  That horses
> run can be absolute even if they all run at different speeds, or if
> some only  run in their dreams.  Perhaps not a good example, but
> hopefully you know what I mean.

I had given you up as a wordmonger (as the tribe elder I can say such 
things :-) but this struck me a pure gold. So many speak about the 
MOQ as "dynamic" revealing that they don't understand. The MOQ is 
the Dynamic/Static Universe and I applaud everything you say to 
demonstrate this point. An even worse misunderstanding is the 
Quality/MOQ one, but I won't start on that just wonder if you have any 
comments on that issue Mark or if I - again -will have to dismiss you ;-)

Bodvar       


















> 
> For the record, imo, Ham adds to the discussion.  I do not see it as
> arrogance, just opinion.  And, we all have those.
> 
> And if you like Magnus feels that he should protect the innocent of
> supposedly wrong interpretations, that is arrogant and condescending
> indeed.  Go save a whale!
> 
> Mark
> 
> Ham said:
> Ham is referring to Pirsig's postulate that Quality equals Reality.
> This is inconsistent with his pronouncement that "experience is the
> cutting edge of reality." If Quality is fixed as a constant of the
> universe, it canot be modified or actualized by experience, for
> experience is relative to the subject 'I'. In short, experience serves
> no purpose in Pirsig's cosmology.
> 
> Magnus replied:
> As always, you manage to jam so many wrongs into a paragraph that it's
> almost amusing, wasn't it for the fact that some new people might read
> it and think it's right.
> 
> dmb says:
> 
> Gotta agree with Magnus here. How Ham can manage to be wrong eight
> times in just four sentences is truly astonishing. How can you hang
> around here for years and not learn anything? Zip, zero, nada. Sheer
> tenacity, I guess. Anyway, the final scenes in ZAMM where Pirsig
> condemns Plato for taking the Good from the Sophists and turning it
> into a fixed, eternal form have a central point. And that is just as
> Magnus said, "Quality is not fixed". Ham has reversed the
> "pronouncement" too. Reality is the cutting edge of experience. Ham
> has reversed the order of experience with respect to subjects as well.
> The subject is not the source of experience, it is a product of
> experience, a concept derived from experience. It's all upside down
> and backwards in Ham's hands. That's probably where the phrase
> "ham-handed" comes from. Probably got his picture right there in the
> dictionary.  What really kills me is this attitude wherein Ham is the
> genius and Pirsig just isn't smart enough to "get it". Somehow that's
> even more upside down and backwards than all the other nonsense put
> together. The nerve! 
> 
> 
> 
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