[MD] Demanding Evidence From Theists

[david buchanan]

Steve said to dmb:
...Given that as pragmatists, neither of us sees religion as having a true essence, we should recognize that there are lots of ways of being religious, right? Are all these ways necessarily evil? Should a pragmatist say that religion is essentially good or bad? Isn't that like saying that politics or sports or education are essentially one thing or another? Isn't the issue about how these practices are done rather than what these practices essentially are? Can't all these things be good or bad depending on how they are practiced?

dmb says:
Who said anything about the essence of religion? Who said there is only one way to be religious? I've never heard anybody say that. My post all about the concrete and particular ways it's being practiced right now, right in front of us. So, I don't see any validity at all to your objections. You're injecting essentialism into this issue and then objecting to presence of essentialism. Sorry but that seems pretty disingenuous, if not downright dishonest. Also, how can you ask me why I've turned this issue into a matter of life and death, as if killing abortion doctors and gay people is just something I dreamed up? How is it NOT a matter of life and death if people are actually getting killed? Because murder doesn't have an essence? Characterizing my concerns as a chicken little-like rhetorical rant seems pretty unfair and unkind and dismissive, which wouldn't seem so cruel if you actually disagreed with the substance of it.  But you don't disagree. So what's with the attitude?

Steve said:
I think we probably agree about the answers to the above questions, but I suspect you think that all that is not the point. The question is, what should we do about the clear and present danger of religious fundamentalism? I agree that that is the important question. You seem to think that the in-your-face style of the new atheists is the best way to combat religious fundamentalism. I'm not so sure that it is, but I also don't claim to know what the best strategy is. I hoped we could discuss what that strategy should be, but unfortunately, the suggestion that we even discuss it is taken as a denial that we are at war. I am reminded of the conservative war-on-terror rhetoric during the dark days of George II.


dmb says:
Well, yes. I fail to see the relevance of essentialism or the all-or-nothingism, neither of which was asserted by anyone. I never said anything about the in-your-face style being the best strategy either. I merely agree with Harris in thinking that nobody should get special treatment or be let of the hook in terms of our standards of reasonableness. I mean, if you'd like to take issue with something I actually said or believe that's fine. Really. I enjoy it. But dude, you're just making stuff up.
May I remind you that some people were looking right past that war on terror rhetoric and were instead demanding evidence of Iraq's threat during the dark days of George II? That evidence was so lacking that the engineers are now at risk of being charged as war criminals. Because George believes that God wants the Iraqi people to be free, he manufactured the evidence. Those weapons have never been found. The link to 9/11 has never been found. Obviously, this was a matter of life and death too. Expressing concern and disapproval isn't going to bring them back to life, but it might save lives in the future, you know? You don't have to be an essentialist to think that's important or real. You only have to believe that beliefs have consequences. I'm saying that in these case theistic beliefs have disastrous consequences and that this is wildly at odds with the notion that we ought not demand evidence for such beliefs. To the extent that you believe that, yes, there is a HUGE difference between your view and mine. I would also say that your view is not pragmatism but rather Rortyism but I suppose that's another topic.





 		 	   		  
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