[MD] Decision

[Mary]

Hi Horse and all,

I wasn't going to respond to this thread at all until Kaye's posts.  I'd
already said something the other day and you disagreed with me, so I figured
that was the end of it.  You are the moderator and I am not, so there's no
point in continuing to argue.  It won't make any difference.  Argue with the
dictator at your own peril is good advice in Cuba.  This is a Social Level
conflict, after all.  All arguing would do in the end is get me expelled.
I gotta admit I was more than a little disappointed to learn that you think
those of us who agree with Bo (though I don't agree with everything) are
lying, dishonest, manipulative, etc. and I have to ask myself if I really
want to continue to participate in a forum where I'm viewed that way?  But
it's beside the point since that's my decision to make and not yours, and
besides, I don't believe _everybody_ thinks that.

But Kaye is absolutely right.  Nothing will tear apart an organization more
quickly than a bad policy.  Anytime a blanket edict comes out as many
implications as possible must be considered beforehand.  For example, while
responding to DMB this morning, I noticed that many of his arguments were
not backed up by 'direct quotes from Pirsig'.  He is expanding and
'interpreting' many things Pirsig said to fit his own understanding of the
MoQ.  Everybody does this.  Nothing wrong with it, but as a joke I told him
I wanted the direct quote from Pirsig where he says whatever it was.

Some of DMBs conclusions I agree with and some I do not.  With a policy like
this in place, we will all devolve very quickly into a schoolyard brawl
where each side can legitimately challenge the statements of the other with
the, "show me the direct quote where Pirsig said _that_" argument.  Do we
really want to go there?

Another thing you could say is that not every utterance by Pirsig is
necessarily solid gold.  Here's a very recent one from the DVD: 

"If you look at cultures outside of America, or if you look at cultures
before Plato, you find there wasn’t much reason in them.  They settled
disputes by revenge rather than by law and so on.”

I think we all know exactly what Pirsig is trying to say here, but to
understand it correctly requires inference since the direct quote itself is
pretty unMoQish when taken at face value don't you think?

I have an administrative question for you.  I was looking back as far in the
archives as possible yesterday and see that my first posts in it were
sometime around late 1998 when I was known in those days as "Mary Wittler".
A lot of posts are missing.  For instance, I clearly remember a great post
from Fintan Dunne that was part of a chapter of a book he was writing at the
time.  It made such an impression on me I remember it to this day.  I can't
find it in the archives.  I also noticed posts where Daddy was responding to
something someone else had said, but the original post is also missing.  I
figure most of this happened when Diana shipped everything off to you from
Hong Kong, but I wonder?

Along with everyone else, Horse, I appreciate the tedious work you have to
do to keep this site running and thank you for doing it.  It's truly amazing
that through technology changes and (doubtless) hardware failures you've
been able to keep the archive more or less intact for so many years, but if
you're going to expel somebody, I wish you would start with the "Prison
Planet" guy and leave Bo alone.  Bo is sincere, I am sincere, and I think
even people I strongly disagree with are totally sincere too.  But maybe I'm
just naïve?

Best,
Mary

> Hi Folks
> 
> I've taken the weekend to think about the recent posts and
> conversations
> with regard to Bo's continued misrepresentation of Pirsig's position
> re:
> SOL.
> 
> I think Arlo has summed up the position correctly when he said:
> 
> #############################
> Arlo:
> Bo's MOQ = the intellectual level IS SOM.
> Pirsig's MOQ = the intellectual level is NOT SOM.
> 
> Arguing one over the other is valid. Attempting to equate them, at the
> expense of suggesting the author is too stupid to understand what he
> himself "meant", is not.
> ##############################
> 
> To my mind (and that of the majority of others who have expressed their
> views on MD) Pirsig has stated quite clearly that he does not see
> SOM/SOL as the Intellectual level. This has been backed up by direct
> quotes from Lila's Child and, in the absence of further evidence, it is
> reasonable to assume that this is how Pirsig continues to see his
> position.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, there are no corresponding quotes to show that
> Pirsig does support SOM/SOL as the Intellectual level. This would mean
> that in order to arrive at the position that he does support SOM/SOL =
> Intellectual level one must use supposition, implication, inference
> etc.
> Arguing this position in this way is valid but to say that it is
> Pirsigs
> position that SOM/SOL = Intellectual level is not valid.
> If direct quotes can be found to show that Pirsig supports SOM/SOL =
> Intellectual level then I am quite prepared to change my position. By
> this I do not mean that it is good enough to say that Pirsig implies it
> or that it can be inferred that Pirsig supports it etc. I want actual
> quotes from Pirsig to say that he supports SOM/SOL = Intellectual
> level.
> 
> Bo, and those that support Bo's position that SOM/SOL = Intellectual
> level, must make it quite clear that it is not Pirsigs position that
> SOM/SOL = Intellectual level when arguing for this position. To do
> otherwise is dishonest and misleading.
> 
> Should Bo continue, as has done over the weekend, to insist and declare
> that Pirsig supports the SOL, is the originator of the SOL etc. then he
> will be removed from MD. Anyone else who maliciously, mischievously or
> otherwise does the same will be similarly removed.
> As far as I'm concerned this is an issue of honesty and integrity and
> if
> this isn't understood by those purporting to understand an issue that
> is
> at the heart of moral behaviour then some time may be needed to
> contemplate their reasons for being here in the first place. I think it
> is very unfortunate that it has come to this.
> 
> I have said repeatedly that I do not want this to happen, but
> apparently
> it is not understood by some and is instead misrepresented by trying to
> turn this into a censorship issue. This is unfortunate but expected
> considering that the majority of those claiming censorship are the very
> ones to whom this position is of importance.
> I believe that I have tried very hard to avoid this over the last few
> weeks and,as such, will have absolutely no qualms about removing Bo or
> anyone else should he/they continue to misrepresent Pirsigs position
> and
> will do so with a clear conscience should this situation persist.
> 
> 
> Horse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
> production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
> — Frank Zappa
> 
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