[MD] The strong interpretation of the MOQ (SIM)

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Mary]
You have this backwards.  Some years ago after the fall of the USSR, 
it became national news in America that Ukrainian's objected to 
having their nation referred to as "The Ukraine".

[Arlo]
Well.. oooookay... I was taking your example to be about any "nation" 
per se, like "THE France" or "THE Japan". Thanks for the 
geo-political information on the region, but that's really irrelevant.

The point is that defining a geographic region as "THE [country X]" 
is, for larger purposes, an act of authority (typically military). 
France's border with Germany is defined by the respective 
military-political authorities of these nations, and has nothing 
really do to with what you or I or someone living in the 
border-region may "want" or think where "France" ends and "Germany" begins.

The "THE" is, then, an authoritative decree. But even the simplest of 
observations shows that its often "fuzzy" at the borders, and thus 
the "THE" is mere authoritative convention.

Pirsig mentions he uses "THE metaphysics of Quality says..." as a 
narrative placeholder for "I, Robert Pirsig, says..." and I think 
when used this way leads to little problem or absurdity. When Bo and 
Pirsig conflict over what "THE metaphysics of Quality says", using 
this language, it implies an external "metaphysics of Quality" over 
which Pirsig and Bo claim to be speaking for. To me, Mary, this is absurd.

Bo and Pirsig do not conflict over what "THE metaphysics of Quality 
says", the conflict over what THEY say. Pirsig clearly sees nothing 
in his ideas that would lead to the SOL conclusion, and he speaks for 
HIS ideas. Bo has disagreed with Pirsig, and has offered HIS ideas of 
how "A" metaphysics of Quality could be strengthened.

[Mary]
At the Social Level, 'lines on a map' are extremely important, and 
yes, there is 'one true Ukraine',

[Arlo]
Maps are certainly important on the social and intellectual levels, 
but tell me who defines the "one true Ukraine"? An army? You? Someone 
living there? How is disagreement settled? Does the military have the 
final say?

[Mary]
Actually, I think nothing of the sort, but since you don't seem too 
terribly interested in what I think, but instead want to use what you 
'think I think' as a platform to express what _you_ think, I feel a 
little bit used.

[Arlo]
Like the other SOLists, you make these objections but offer nothing 
in return but evasions and tangents. I've asked these questions 
clearly, several times, and even with your latest reply am getting no 
straight answers. If I imply anything, its because you have not given 
me anything else to go on. You think YOU feel used, well, Mary, I 
feel tired of the typical and continued evasions, dishonesties and 
distortions.

Look, Mary, I am NOT making any comments here whatsoever about the 
SOL/SIM/SOLAQI. I've stated elsewhere I find no value in this 
revision, but I have always supported Bo's ability to offering an 
alternative view than Pirsig's. But that is all that this has become, 
a grab for authoritative legitimacy, a effort to say "Pirsig 
orginated this" or "Pirsig really meant to say this, if only he 
wasn't too cowardly or too ignorant of his own ideas to do so".

And, as this latest post from you more or less confirms, I think the 
big hang-up among the SOLites, the impetus to see only the need for 
authoritative legitimacy, derives from an inability to see that there 
is no "THE MOQ", but "A" MOQ that is Pirsig's ideas and "A" MOQ that 
is Bo's critical revision.

[Mary quotes Pirsig]
If something is wrong there's a good chance that the error isn't in 
what he thought but in my reconstruction of it, and a better 
reconstruction can later be found.

[Arlo]
Okay. Bo's metaphysics is a "reconstruction" of Pirsig's ideas. Fair 
enough. I have no problem with this. Seems to me to be valid ground.

But the point is that by foregrounding "THE", in this case assuming 
there is but ONE MOQ that people tear down and rebuild, you totally 
objectify "THE MOQ" into something apart from the ideas of the people 
speaking. As I said, it turns THE MOQ into the elephant, and us the 
blind men trying to interpret what "IT" is. Which gives Bo the 
ability to claim that he alone has sight and has seen the elephant, 
while even Pirsig stands there holding the trunk claiming its a snake.

And let me reask the question, why does there need to be "One True 
MOQ". What is wrong with there being Pirsig's ideas and Bo's ideas 
and your ideas and my ideas?

You know, saying this, I see a striking parallel between this and 
"religion". I'm sure you can see it too. I'll expand on this later, 
as its a biggie, but for now I'll just point to it.

[Mary]
Based on Pirsig's explanation of how his books came about above, no 
one has any authority on this subject - least of all Pirsig.

[Arlo]
LEAST of all Pirsig??? Quite frankly I'm not even sure how to respond 
to this. But, it does confirm you see the MOQ as some "external" 
thingamabob "out there" and we are all just blind fools (Pirsig 
apparently the blindest) trying to figure out what the hell this thing is.

This is a path to absurdity (you do realize you are citing Pirsig's 
authority to support the claim that Pirsig is the least authoritative 
person here... Alright, I am now thoroughly convinced the 
SOL/SIM/SOLAQI is a product of muddied thinking).

[Arlo previously]
In other words, what do you think is wrong with saying "A metaphysics 
of Quality that holds the intellectual level to SOM is better than A 
metaphysics of Quality that considers SOM to be one on many 
intellectual patterns"?

Does that not sum up your position? Why is it more important for you 
to say instead "THE metaphysics of Quality holds the intellectual 
level to SOM"?

[Mary]
Give it a rest.  Too bad we are not speaking in Ukrainian which has 
no articles.

[Arlo]
I can't say I am surprised you couldn't answer this. But I will make 
a nod to your final thought. Yes, it is too bad. Try to purge use of 
"THE metaphysics of Quality" from your posts and see if that helps 
bring clarity to you. It should.