[MD] Levels in electronic computers

[Andy Skelton]

Magnus to Ian:
> However, the boundary *is* really discrete because of that 3D fit. It's
> simply a completely new way of building things, and it's more dynamic and
> therefore more moral.

I don't buy this. Chemical reactions, no matter how complex, do not
qualify as a biological pattern unless they tend to self-perpetuate
against adverse forces. You can make 3D-fitting reactions in a test
tube in an Organic Chemistry Lab but that doesn't mean anything inside
that test tube has evolved to the biological level, i.e. is alive.

>> [IG] Err no ! (Talk about straw men !) ;-) Life-limited in the organic
>> level ... just like a sterile man ... no further contributions to the
>> gene pool, life limited contribution to the nurturing of other
>> individual gene carriers, main contribution in the socio-intellectual
>> space where contributions to patterns can memetically outlive the
>> life.
>
> But such arguments doesn't count in my view. I require direct dependency,
> remember? So, to me that's evidence that reproduction is *not* a requirement
> for the organic level.

Reproduction is a red herring. Drop it! There is a huge difference
between reproduction and self-perpetuation. I chose that term for its
precise meaning and I added "against adverse forces" to make it
explicit that a pattern cannot be said to have evolved to Level 2 by
merely being cyclical.

A person who cannot reproduce yet who breathes is certainly still at
least Level 2. He is still self-perpetuating against adversity
(gravity, thermodynamics, entropy, etc.) and is still
self-perpetuating his patterns. He will eventually succumb and cease
to be Level 2 but until then, he's alive.

I can't believe this is a problem for anyone.

> So, would you require reproduction in this "substrate of A-Life"?

This would be a mistake. Stick to "self-perpetuation against adverse
forces" and don't misunderstand that to imply "perpetual existence".
Forms of life may evolve or be created, and succeed indefinitely or
fail quickly, in any part of any universe at any time. Extinction
means it's dead now, not that it never lived.

Andy