[MD] Babylonian intellectuals

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[DMB]
So, what I'm saying is just that math was born in a practical, concrete
situation and was simply a matter of counting things like sheep, cows, days,
slaves, soldiers, taxes and the like. 

[Arlo]
Well, this is kind of a move from my examples about calculating precessional
formulas to the use of numerical representations in toto. I agree with you
here, by the way, and had argued on the list before that I see this change you
talk about as a movement from (for example) "two" as a symbol representing
occurrences of "cows" to "two" as a pattern for consideration in-and-of-itself.

So using "two" as a "mere" descriptor when ancient peoples needed a way to
describe occurrences does, I'd argue, constitute a social level pattern (its a
symbol that mediates social activity). But using "two" as an abstract symbol
for some "twoness" constitutes the emergence of intellectual patterns. 

I guess I am saying that in their precessional calculations I see evidence of
the latter emerging. And this is qualitatively different from the simple use of
number signs to count sheep or slaves. Sure, it would be sometimes before
intellectual patterns evolved to a complexity where they achieved power over
social patterns, and for argumentative purposes have no problem looking back
the 5th century BCE as the time when we see this happening.

My point was, to Bo, talking about the "appearance" of intellectual patterns
with the Greeks is untenable argument. Talking about the "dominance" of
intellectual patterns as during this time is something else, and a tenable
argument.

[DMB]
And I think this general shift has everything to do an increased power of
abstraction. The idea that intellectual values only recently came to dominate
and are still being resisted by neo-Victorian reactionaries shows, I think,
that we are still living with both.

[Arlo]
I agree. "Abstraction" is a good place to look for emergent intellectual
patterns. Symbols underscore human social activity, but it was as these symbols
began to be seen as patterns that could be examined apart from their social
meanings that we see intellectual patterns make an appearance.

I just think we can see this beginning to happen further back then the Greeks,
that's all, which says nothing about their prevalence or dominance, just that
they have an evolutionary history that predates predates their
come-to-dominance in 5 BCE.