[MD] inorganic patterns & thinking

[Magnus Berg]

On 2010-07-19 14:13, MarshaV wrote:
>> Hello again,
>>
>> First, thank you for the seriousness of this exchange.

Likewise.

>> For me the MoQ is Quality(unpatterned experience/patterned
>> experience), all else is speculation.  What you "know" is bits and
>> pieces of ever-changing, interrelated, impermanent pattern, and I
>> think it arrogant to call that real.  Call it the most useful and
>> best workable hypothesis available at the moment, but not real.

I think you're forgetting something regarding "experience". Experience
is not just about you, it requires something on the other end of the
experience as well. This is usually used the other way around, to
indicate that a tree might *not* fall in the forest if nobody is there
to hear or see it. However, it's just as valid if we turn it around. For
you to have an experience, it requires both an experiencer and something
to experience. This is the subject and object side of the Quality event.
This isn't speculation. The way you use the word "experience", it seems
as if you just acknowledge the subjective side of it, but that's just
half of the experience, half of quality, and half of reality.

Regarding the "most useful hypothesis" you mentioned. I think the MoQ 
levels are quite useful here as well. As I replied to Ham yesterday, 
some are often afraid to take anything for granted nowadays, and that is 
because SOM doesn't acknowledge anything but the lowest possible 
explanation to be really real. It doesn't acknowledge that taste is 
real, because taste is just a biological process built using inorganic 
ones. And then gravity is next, gravity isn't real anymore because there 
is some underlying process that explains how it works. So, in fear of 
believing in something that might get jerked away, people stop believing 
in anything. The only thing that people *can* believe in is experiences 
that science is quite incapable of explaining, like why a work of art is 
beautiful, or why you like a song. So that becomes the only things that 
people can say: "This is my reality. Neither you nor anyone else can 
take that away from me by explaining that it's just chemistry, or 
magnetism, or entropy, or whatever."

But the levels of the MoQ *are* exactly such stepping stones that we 
*can* believe in. We can claim without having to ever take it back, that 
the taste of the freshly brewed coffee in my cup is real, that gravity 
keeps my feet to the ground, etc.

> I am of the mind that all patterns have a relationship with thinking
> and that is the cause of the self/object split.

I disagree. The self/object split is, as I said above, a direct result 
of the experience, the Quality event. Thinking is just how we got it 
into our heads and are able to foresee the future of the experienced object.

> But in the fourth
> level it has become formalized and can do the most damage by its
> emphasis an objective, thing-in-itself world and "real" knowledge.

And what damage is that exactly? That things you believe in can be taken 
away?

This will probably sound religious, but:

Have faith in reality

	Magnus