[MD] Babylonian intellectuals

[Khoo Hock Aun]

Hi Dave,

Sometimes I suppose we have to take the bull by the horns and bring the East
West agenda right to the forefront and ignore the noise coming from the
SOLSOM side of the room.

If a view point has merit, then it will percolate right to the very top.

One of my observations previously has been the scant work done by Western
philosophers on Eastern civilisations. Even then those few tend to see it
from the Western worldview, invariably the SOM perspective. In this view it
is difficult to understand and even accept that other cultures and
civilisations had evolve their own versions of intellect and arrived at an
intellectual level quite different from the SOM-dominated Western version.

A few months ago, I brought up the Metaphysics of Polar Opposites as the
basis of Chinese philosophy and as permeating all of Chinese culture.
The intellectual pattern of the Chinese Emperor being the son of Heaven and
the intermediary between Heaven and Earth bestows on him the all-important
task of issuing the Chinese Almanac or Calendar.

This document is the result of the precessional calculations required to
predict the cycles that affect all aspects of everything, all subjects in
the Middle Kingdom, from Government to Justice to Weddings to Business and
all that we can think of.

The first slice of Reality for the Metaphysics of the Harmony are the Polar
Opposites; the yin and the yang, the positive and the negative, the male and
the female, the hot and the cold, the rising and the waning.

This Metaphysics is so not SOM.

Horse brought this out earlier in his reference to process metaphysics. A
wiki reference to Ancient Greek thought says that the formal development of
this theory begins with Heraclitus's fragments in which he posits the nous,
the ground of Becoming, as agon, or "strife of opposites" as the underlying
basis of all reality defined by change. That balance and conflict were the
foundations of change and stability in the flux of existence.
Plato and Aristotle have however posited true reality as "timeless", based
on permanent substances, whilst processes are denied or subordinated to
timeless substances.

For SOM to hold, an object to be created, it has to hold everything else
equal or constant  "ceteris paribus", that little fiction sleight of hand
that produces for us the subject and the object, the mind and the matter
that we observe.

Now imagine a culture, or even cultures that have philosophy, a metaphysics
where the first slice of reality are the polar opposites. And if we accept
and see that all there is is change, the flux between the opposites or the
harmony between the sensible and the ridiculous, we see the dynamic always
in action.

Now imagine a culture, where everyone is taught to think in this way, where
the bedrock is to find balance and harmony between always opposing
tendencies and where the systems of governance and basis for reasoning is
harmony. Imagine a civilisation where its highest intellectual pattern is to
establish harmony where the only constant is change between the two poles of
experience.

Sounds a lot like Quantum Physics to me.  Sounds a lot like what the Chinese
Almanac issued by the Chinese Emperor of old tried to achieved and to run
Chinese society with. It is still so today.

Now when are we going to steer discussion to stuff like that ?

The Metaphysics of Quality provides the tools to compare two separate
civilisations based on two different Metaphysics by unifying them under one
Metaphysics of Value. For that matter do we have the tools to understand and
appreciate the Metaphysics of every other respectable civilisation Man has
spawned ?

Imagine how other civilisations based on other Metaphysics or worldviews
look upon the materialistic driven SOM based Western civilisation. There are
too few voices from that side of Planet Earth on this forum. Practically
none. Maybe they are spooked by the Islamaphobia and the aspersions of
wooliness. Maybe to them its all child's play and the not the serious stuff
of expiating the burden of millions of lives and livetimes.

If this is not of "biblical proportions", stuff of Heaven and Earth variety,
I dont know what is. The worst thing is to have the illusion of knowledge,
to think that one knows and understand it all, when in reality the
understanding is flawed. When one imposes that karma on a group, the group
shares it as well. Sharing karma eases the pain on the afflicted and we
should do this willingly.

>From the universal to the personal, the Metaphysics of Quality surely
touches everything and everyone. And perhaps the key to tapping into Quality
has less to do with discussing it than living it.

Rgds
Khoo Hock Aun


On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:54 PM, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>wrote:

>
> Hello Khoo,
>
> Thanks very much. Your points are well taken, encouraging and exceptionally
> reasonable.
>
> I think you're quite right about opposition. It does sharpen both sides of
> the debate, at least potentially. But in those cases where one or both sides
> are defending a ridiculous position, I'm not so sure that it does any good.
> Like you, I also "hope we can explore the new vistas an expanded rationality
> can explore". The East-West fusion is completely worthy of a philosopher's
> time and energy too. But this place is too cluttered up with confusion at
> the most basic levels of understanding. And it's perpetrated by a just small
> handful of incorrigible long-timers. It's literally a drag. It's truly a
> bummer and I think it's reasonable to complain about it.
>
> Thanks again for your kindness.
> Dave
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 11:04:17 +0800
> > From: khoohockaun at gmail.com
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Babylonian intellectuals
>  >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 2:49 AM, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > This is a misconception and it is just one of many examples. In the
> MOQ,
> > > the difference between abstractions and concrete reality is the
> difference
> > > between static intellectual patterns and direct everyday experience.
> It's
> > > the difference between sq and DQ. You are simply misconstruing the MOQ
> as
> > > SOM.
> > >
> > Khoo:
> > Yes, IT really boils down to this.
> >
> > That many can read an author like Pirsig and come away with widely
> differing
> > understandings is to be expected.
> >
> > I would have thought a more open dynamic mind would be completely
> receptive
> > to what Pirsig was trying to convey. A closed static mind, sees the MOQ
> only
> > in its own mould.  In Bo's case, I would venture fourth stage meta-stasis
> > had already set in years ago.
> >
> > Pirsig should have added a caveat, that the MOQ is not for everyone to
> grasp
> > at first instance. For some it could takes, years, decades or even a
> > lifetime.
> >
> > Dave added:
> >
> >
> > > I really, really hate what you're doing to this place, clogging it up
> with
> > > this hair-brained nonsense all the time. I listened to it for over a
> decade
> > > now and I'm just sick to death of it. Please, get a hobby. Go away. Let
> us
> > > do philosophy, will you? That would be "a promising development".
> > >
> > Khoo would like to say:
> >
> > I, for one, really appreciate all your exertions, as do all else who
> labour
> > like you do to clarify our understanding of the MOQ and Quality as
> presented
> > by Pirsig.
> >
> > It is not wasted, even if it might be on Bo.
> >
> > It has helped instead to refresh our perspectives, place into context,
> again
> > and again by repeated defence against the assault on Pirsig's MOQ.
> >
> > Lurkers and newbies alike, if I may say so, who disdain but endure the
> > endless, sometimes pointless argumentation over basic definitions, see
> much
> > value in defending Pirsig's formulation of the MOQ, given that it is THAT
> > which drew them here in the first place, not a pretender's version.
> >
> > If and when, we, as a discussion group,  leave all this "adolesecent"
> > sparring behind, I hope we can explore the new vistas an expanded
> > rationality can explore.
> >
> > We still have not bridged Western and Eastern philosophies yet, which is
> one
> > such great promise of the MOQ finding common ground I look forward to;
> > by understanding how Eastern civilisations have achieved their respective
> > intellectual levels as compared to the SOM-dominated Western worldview.
> >
> > We will cross the bridge when we come to it. But we are not there yet.
> > Not when we still have to come to terms with tendencies no matter how
> overt
> > or latent, for Western hegemony over the rest of the world.
> >
> > It does looks like a slog, but then again, who can ask for a better cast
> of
> > characters than on the this list to make philosophy an ongoing dynamic
> > battle, an everyday real-life clash of ideas sometimes couched in terms
> of
> > "biblical proportions" and implications. It gets the adrenaline pumping;
> > emotional drivers that help meld the static and the dynamic to yield
> > creative insight by the clash of the rhetorical swords.
> >
> > You stay keen and sharp by your own vigilance for the real and good. This
> > state of mind does not come in the absence of opponents and detractors
> who
> > distract by imposing themselves on you.
> >
> > Thats all they do and want to do.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Khoo Hock Aun
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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