[MD] Social Intellectual

[skutvik at online.no]

Ian, DMB, All.

Ian:
> The paradox is that having conceptualised a high quality intellectual idea
> / pattern, (using intellectual "freedom") .... cut.

Conceptualized, my a....! What is not conceptualized if you mean 
conveyed by language? When will this deeply un-moqish notion about 
intellect being mental (just concepts) come to an end? Besides there 
isn't high and low quality inside a level, the good and bad only exists 
on the inter-level plane. A bacteria isn't low quality biology merely a 
simple life form i.e inside a level evolution goes from simplicity to 
complexity and that goes for intellect too. The Greek physics was 
simplistic intellect while Quantum Physics is so complex that intellect's 
rational S/O matrix cannot accommodate it. and I suggest that it can 
be seen as (one of) the stepping-stones from intellect to the MOQ, we 
know that Pirsig used Quantum arguments for instance to dismantle 
the substance concept. I.e. static inorganic value patterns  do not 
correspond to SOM's matter. Why he forgot to add that static intellect 
doesn't correspond to SOM's mind is a mystery and a tragedy because 
intellect (=concepts) = mind is now used to SOM-ify the MOQ.       

paste ...:
> it needs to be realized in the lower levels (or remain forever
> conceptual). That realization through the social level then depends on
> being able to "dominate" other social patterns using things that look
> less like "freedom" and more like "authority" backed by "force" and it
> starts to look more like a social pattern, even though it originated in
> intellect.

If/when a new scientific theory is published in a newspaper or 
magazine and eventually accepted it's NOT a social "realization" - 
intellectual value will never be social value the latter can only be 
subdued. Social value is something much more basic that looks upon 
intellect  as undermining TRADITION in all forms. To see the real 
social vs intellectual struggle displayed look to the West vs Islam 
conflict. There are scarcely any pure social patterns left in the Western 
World, even its religion - Christendom - has been brought under 
intellect's control. The Muslims who have moved to the West strive to 
keep Islam out of intellect's influence,  if they will succeed is an open 
issue.          

                                   -------------

DMB comments:
> I don't think that's true. Nobody ever defended Einstein's equation at
> gunpoint. Ideas are protected or shot down through social institutions
> like academic journals, funders of research grants, universities and
> such. 

Academic journals, universities and such as social institutions!! Bah! 
Koran schools in Pakistan are, but not the Western articles, even 
theology has become an academic discipline, the students do not read 
the Bible as God's words, but for "comparative studies". All is 
intellectual objectivity through and through.  

> Our highest laws are supposed to protect intellectual freedom. The Bill of
> Rights is supposed to prohibit any infringements on the right to free
> speech, freedom of association, trial by jury, freedom of religion. 

Now that's right,  law which once - when social value ruled - were rules 
delivered by God and tradition has in our intellect-steeped culture 
become the protector of intellectual value 

> The free exchange of ideas is more valuable than the freedom to buy and
> sell things. Wouldn't it be nice if Americans appreciated the meaning
> of intellectual freedom a little more and cared a little less about his
> "freedom" as a consumer? I think so. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a
> lot less "stuff" but every single thing we owned was really well built
> and beautiful too? I think so.

In a far future when the MOQ has become the metaphysics so 
ingrained that people take it for granted this may well come to pass.  

> "...a culture that supports the dominance of intellectual values over
> social values is absolutely superior to one that does not." (Pirsig,
> Lila, p.311) 

Yes, but then cultures aren't social-intellectual combinations as your 
new pupil Andre announced (that social value underpins intellectual 
value goes without saying) A culture has either social or intellectual 
value as top notch. Period!


Bodvar