[MD] A.I.

[plattholden at gmail.com]

On 20 Jul 2010 at 22:44, ARLO J BENSINGER JR wrote:

[Platt]
So I guess Pirsig didn't really mean it when he wrote, " Natural selection is 
Dynamic Quality at work " (Lila, 11)

[Arlo]
Oh I am sure he did. And I agree. "Natural Selection" does not imply
intentional or deliberately manipulative interference from an outside "agent",
it is what we observe only in large scale patterns of Quality-responses. 

[Platt]
Intentional? What about "betterness? That's intent. Outside agent? Outside of 
what?

[Platt]
And, he really didn't mean it when he wrote, "But restrictions that stop the
degenerates also stop the creative Dynamic forces of evolution." (Lila, 14)  

[Arlo]
I am sure he did. And I agree. Halting "creativity" halts evolution. But this
quote also implies nothing about a volitional or interfering "agent", such as
your Qualigod.

[Platt]
So what do creative Dynamic forces do if not create? (Qualigod" is a red 
herring.)   

[Platt]
And, he really didn't mean it when he wrote many other passages citing value
forces as the catalyst of pattern creation.

[Arlo]
I am sure he did. And I agree. But none of these speaks to a volitional or
intentional "agent" like your Qualigod, and NONE of them speaks to my point
that Pirsig places the social strata as a necessary level BETWEEN biology and
intellect.

[Platt]
Nice attempt to avoid the issue. Is DQ a catalyst of pattern creation or not? 
As for a necessary level, all levels are necessary, beginning with the 
inorganic. Duh.  

[Arlo]
I mean, that's three attempts and three fails.

[Platt]
You mean three home runs. 

[Platt]
And, your solution to the appearance of mind from matter is "Aha," the
Panthigod who magically emerged from society while DQ was off in another galaxy
somewhere.

[Arlo]
AHA! is the best three-letter description of Dynamic Quality I can think of.
You want a longer word? Eureka! Of course "DQ" was here, but it is far from the
Qualigod you make it out to be. No volition. No intent. No planning. No "plan".
Just the AHA! occurrences of patterns respond to Quality in the moment.

[Platt]
Agree no planning, but volition, intent for betterness, absolutely. Glad you 
agree DQ is essential for value pattern creation.  

[Arlo]
No magic. And no "god". You remain trapped in such absurd dichotomies.

[Platt] 
While you remain trapped in SOM materialism .

[Arlo]
But, at least you seem to finally acknowledge that in Pirsig's MOQ,
intellectual patterns do NOT appear from biology, even with the collusion of a
manipulative Qualigod. No, according to Pirsig and the "modern scientists" who
really exist (outside your rhetorical fantasyland), "intellectual patterns"
emerge from social patterns.

[Platt]
And biological patterns emerge from inorganic patterns in response to DQ and 
social patterns emerge from biological patterns in response to DQ. Find me a 
scientist who acknowledges the role of DQ in evolutionary development. Find me 
a scientist who can answer the question, "Why does life survive? And find me a 
scientist who doesn't believe intellect results from the activity of brain 
synapses.      

[Arlo]
They are not "forced" to do so by your Qualigod, nor were they ordained to do
so, nor planned to do so, nor was the cosmos manipulated by your Qualigod to
bring about their evolution. Their emergence was the natural, unplanned and
unmanipulated result of patterns responding in their own way to Quality. 

[Platt}
Unmanipulated? How about "directed," as in " . . . the decisions that directed 
the progress of evolution are, in fact,  Dynamic Quality (Lila, 11)

[Arlo]
In any event, as you said to Ham, the key to Pirsig's MOQ is that "mind"
(horrible word) did not appear from biology, "mind" (I assume you mean
"intellectual patterns") appears according to the MOQ from "social patterns".

Which if you read Pirsig you'd know was not so much a revelation his, but an
agreement with many others working in the field who have realized that the
social level intermediates biology and intellect.

But I don't expect you to see that. No, I expect some more ridiculous attempts
to prop up your Qualigod, not the least of which is your inane Pee-Wee
Maneuver. 

[Platt]  
More red herrings But, from you that's expected. And, why am I not surprised by 
your emphasis on the collective?