[MD] Social Intellectual

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Fri Jul 23 23:16:26 PDT 2010 

On Jul 23, 2010, at 8:28 PM, Joseph Maurer wrote:

> 
> On 7/22/10 11:38 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> [Marsha]
> In the fourth level, I understand 'intellectual' to be an adjective
> describing the way its collection of patterns function, and for me they
> function on the basis of a SOM assumption.  -  No matter how I investigate
> 'intellect'  I get confused how to relate it to intellectual patterns.  I
> bounce back and forth between the definitions of 'intellect', 'perceptions',
> 'faculty', 'capacity', and become a little bit nuts.  It is beyond my
> understanding of language to adjust it.
> 
> [Joe]
> I reach for undefined levels in consciousness-only to integrate my
> experience of the levels described in esoteric writings to the 4 levels
> proposed by Pirsig. I accept that Intellect is a meaningful evolutionary
> event of SO as described by BO. The S/O description is satisfying

Marsha:
Iintellectual patterns of value are based on a formalized S/O basis. That 
works for me.  It sounds like you are saying that 'intellect' is best thought of 
as an event in the flow of evolution.  



> 
>> 
>> [Marsha]
>> The most basic definition of metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that
>> examines the nature of reality. A metaphysics represents reality. And sure
>> it described and re-described and re-described, but under it all they are
>> all varieties of subject- object reality.  Enlightenment, it seems to me,
> is about transcending self and object thinking.
>> 
>> [Joe]
>> The intellectual level is SOL in DQ/SQ evolution.  I accept an emotional,   a
> higher emotional, and a higher intellectual level in DQ only evolution. I
>> do not know if the last two levels agree with your view of enlightenment.
> 
> [Marsha:]
> I am definitely not qualified to discuss or define enlightenment, but I can
> daydream.  To me it would be the level where it is known (heart) that
> everything is connected to everything (no self, no objects), and that way of
> knowing is deeply embedded in the psyche and always present.  If by
> emotional you mean joy, well I totally agree.  The fourth level would be the
> minor fall, and the fifth level will be the major lift, like from Leonard
> Cohen's song Hallelujah. How about you?
> 
> I admire the levels as a method for pointing the dominant,
> over-intellectualized attitude to the moon, but I hold the level structure
> lightly.  Knowing the transitory nature of all patterns has made the biggest
> impact. 
> 
> I know most consider emotions related to the biological level, but I agree
> with you there is a higher level of emotions.
> 
> Has the choir you sing with ever sung Cohen's Hallelujah?
> 
> Marsha
> 
> [Joe]
> Discussing the ins and outs of MOQ seems to be something close to
> enlightenment, and I think you are being overly modest.  The choir I sing
> with is small and we stand around the organ and sing.  The director plays
> the piano-organ.  I have never sung Cohen’s Hallelujah!
> 
> Evolution is the fly in the ointment of structured reality.  It doesn’t seem
> to belong there, but it sure makes sense.
> 
> Joe


{Marsha}  
Somewhere RMP states that even evolution is a static pattern of value.  
That is how I understand it.  Even Emptiness is empty.  For me, the MoQ 
represents Reality as Quality(unpatterened experience and patterned 
experience).  RMP is brilliant.   ZMM and LILA are wonderful, with the 
character Lila, with her soliloquy in Chapter 14, the most insightful.  
The MoQ is ingenious AND over the moon.  It is easier than ever to 
experience contentment and joy: not this, not that.


Marsha 









> 
>> 
>> On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:49 PM, Joseph Maurer wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7/22/10 8:28 AM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Marsha V and All,
>>> 
>>> [Marsha]
>>> And I believe there is the beginning of a quality-ievel (not DQ) which will
>>> represent a going beyond thoughts as we know them.  The Intellectual
>>> Level will/is its parent.  This belief is built on my experience via
>>> meditation.  
>>> 
>>> [Joe]
>>> DQ/SQ is exhaustive and I think the perception of a Quality level is DQ.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Yes, the way you put it the perception of a new 'quality level' would be DQ.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Evolution SQ is a concept for describing DQ in quality-levels.  Evolution
>>> adds its own principle of individuation to the individuals within a level.
>>> Therefore the levels are discreet.  It can be confusing keeping levels and
>>> individuals named after the levels separate.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Ahhhh.  Yes, I see, you are correct, it is very confusing to call a new level
>> the 'quality level' when all levels represent quality (static).  A better
>> descriptive name of this new level is needed.
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> [Marsha]
>>> I understand the metaphysical assumption underlying intellectual patterns
>>> to be of the subject-object variety.  It is deeply embedded in our psyche
>>> (habits) and deeply imbedded in our language.  But then I speak only of
>>> intellectual static patterns of value only.  I exclude words like intellect
>>> and intelligence because they confuse the issue.
>>> 
>>> [Joe]
>>> I am unclear about how a faculty for perception like intellect confuses the
>>> intellectual static patterns of value unless it is confusing DQ/SQ at the
>>> intellectual level with DQ only emotional, higher emotional and higher
>>> intellectual levels.
>> 
>>> 
>>> [Marsha]
>>> The most basic definition of metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that
>>> examines the nature of reality. A metaphysics represents reality. And sure
>>> it described and re-described and re-described, but under it all they are
>>> all varieties of subject- object reality.  Enlightenment, it seems to me, is
>>> about transcending self and object thinking.
>>> 
>>> [Joe]
>>> The intellectual level is SOL in DQ/SQ evolution.  I accept an emotional, a
>>> higher emotional, and a higher intellectual level in DQ only evolution.  I
>>> do not know if the last two levels agree with your view of enlightenment.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> And I believe there is the beginning of a quality-ievel (not DQ) which will
>>>> represent a going beyond thoughts as we know them.  The Intellectual
>>>> Level will/is its parent.  This belief is built on my experience via
>>>> meditation.  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I understand the metaphysical assumption underlying intellectual patterns
>>>> to be of the subject-object variety.  It is deeply embedded in our psyche
>>>> (habits) 
>>>> and deeply imbedded in our language.  But then I speak only of intellectual
>>>> static 
>>>> patterns of value only.  I exclude words like intellect and intelligence
>>>> because 
>>>> they confuse the issue.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> SOM is an intellectual description of reality, not the capacity
>>>>> to create intellectual descriptions. Big difference.
>>>> 
>>>> The most basic definition of a metaphysics is the branch of
>>>> philosophy that examines the nature of reality.  A metaphysics
>>>> represents reality.  And sure it described and re-described and
>>>> re-described, but under it all they are all varieties of subject- object
>>>> reality.  Enlightenment, it seems to me, is about transcending self and
>>>> object thinking.
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha  
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
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