[MD] Babylonian intellectuals

[skutvik at online.no]

Marsha, Mary, Multitude.

24 July 

Marsh to Mary,

> Maybe the difficulty is the Intellectual pattern that states objects
> are not objects, but patterns of value: SOM wiped out, end of story.  

This is THE point Marsha, Pirsig wen to great lengths to show that 
SOM's substance - or objects - don't correspond to MOQ'a inorganic 
level, but so many seems tho think that SOM still rules that the said 
inorganic patterns are objects and - consequently - that intellectual 
patterns are "subjective thoughts". And as long as this continues the 
MOQ is lame and tame.   

Mary had written:
> > Arlo and dmb are struggling with a set of platypi below due to an
> > incorrect definition of the Intellectual Level.  The unsolvable
> > questions they are asking can be dissolved if it is understood that
> > the Intellectual Level is not brains, smarts, intellect, or degree
> > of intelligence.  Nor is it a bucket where you put thoughts,
> > premises, ideas, or 'thinking itself'.  If instead of this, you
> > define the Intellectual Level as a pattern of values which value
> > subject-object logic and deny the primacy of value in the Universe,
> > then all these questions go away, or become moot, or are solved,
> > etc.

This is just RIGHT!! Arlo has become a mean little Jr. of late and his 
"agony" over us strong interpreters i a little pathetic - almost as 
exasperated as Andre - while DMB primarily is a thinker and at times 
his logic lands him in SOL-land - as in the beginning of this Babylonian 
thread and when referring to Mythos - Logos as matching the Social - 
Intellectual one. That's promising I really care for what he says.

Bodvar
























> > 
> > Best,
> > Mary
> > 
> >> Arlo to dmb:
> >>> Are you suggesting that should a priest use mathematics, the
> >> calculations are "social"? Is "2+2=4" a social pattern if it is
> >> used to count sheep in the field, but an intellectual pattern in a
> >> modern classroom?
> >> 
> >> dmb to Arlo:
> >>> Well, not exactly. But when kids are learning how to add in the
> >> modern classroom they are introduced to the concept in very
> >> concrete terms. A math text book at that level might even have a
> >> picture of two pairs of sheep, for example, when introducing the
> >> concept. This developmental process probably recapitulates the
> >> evolutionary process as a whole. So, what I'm saying is just that
> >> math was born in a practical, concrete situation and was simply a
> >> matter of counting things like sheep, cows, days, slaves, soldiers,
> >> taxes and the like. Some of the oldest written records, in fact,
> >> calculate portions of beer per slave per day. This takes
> >> intelligence and the use of symbols but it is relatively concrete
> >> or rather it's not very abstract.
> >> 
> > [Andy]
> >> Counting sheep by scratching lines in the sand is a total
> >> abstraction of concrete thing. It's not a little of this, a little
> >> of that. The lines in the sand have no value but in the mind where
> >> they represent something. Even without numerals and arithmetic it's
> >> pure abstraction.
> >> 
> >> I have no position on whether this gets them the "intellect"
> >> distinction. I'm not going to get into what you two are doing,
> >> which is arguing over which algorithm is best for sorting sand. You
> >> aren't proposing to do anything with the piles except stamp your
> >> name on them. It just squeezes all the value out of the metaphysics
> >> to treat it this way.
> >> 
> >> None of us ever in our lives complete the work of defining any one
> >> of the levels. It is a fool's errand. No, I'm not calling you
> >> foolish personally. Only your current activity. Don't recant or
> >> apologize; the social ledger need not balance here. I just hope you
> >> find a better way to apply your intellect.
> >> 
> >> To properly condemn what you're doing I feel I should name it. So
> >> I'll call it Definism. I don't know what to call my position.
> >> 
> >> Subsequently, I looked up Definism and found the word already in
> >> use. It fits well enough.
> >> 
> >> Arlo to dmb:
> >>> ... I am not suggesting that intellect dominated the social worlds
> >>> of
> >> these ancient cultures, far from it. Its obvious that social
> >> patterns were in control, but I think in these calculations we see
> >> the appearance of newly emerging intellectual patterns.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> dmb to Arlo:
> >>> Yea, something like that. Maybe they were the direct precursors. I
> >> mean, it seems like we still live with both levels and it's easy to
> >> see how one grew out of the other. Alchemy and chemistry, astrology
> >> and astronomy, numerology and mathematics, ritual calendars and
> >> scientific time, the soul and the self, etc.. And I think this
> >> general shift has everything to do an increased power of
> >> abstraction. The idea that intellectual values only recently came
> >> to dominate and are still being resisted by neo-Victorian
> >> reactionaries shows, I think, that we are still living with both. I
> >> mean, in some sense you can see how ancient Babylonians thought by
> >> looking at social level people in our own time. It wasn't that long
> >> ago, you know? It must have been something like a fundamentalist's
> >> mind.
> >> 
> > [Andy]
> >> You think intellect dominates society in any part of this world
> >> right now? I think you're fooling yourself.
> >> 
> >> Mumbling in a puddle of piss,
> >> Andy
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