[MD] spanner in the works

[skutvik at online.no]

Group!

28 July John had dug up an old Paul Turner post and this excited me 
... at first, but then (my indentions)  

> *Paul Turner*
> *Mon Dec 5 01:50:10 PST 2005*
 
> Paul:  I'm not just talking about thinking or intelligence but the
> explicit discipline of logic.  I maintain that prior to around the 4th
> century BC logic as a discipline simply did not exist.  This is part
> of my argument 

    that rationality is an adequate definition of the intellectual level 

> where rationality is not restricted to adhering to  the premises of a
> subjective/objective metaphysics. 

First Paul sees rationality as an adequate definition of the intellectual 
level, but then adds that rationality isn't restricted to the premises of 
SOM. But here I think he is on thin ice. The 4th. level isn't "subjects 
and objects" as so many weak interpreters love to say, but the 
objective attitude in general and here I think SOM fits rationality like 
the hand and glove..   

> Rationality, to me, is the assumption that a belief is true by virtue
> of its justificatory relationships with other beliefs and not solely
> by virtue of the relationship of the belief to the believer or to the
> putative source of the belief e.g. the Gods, which is the mark of a
> purely social level belief. 

Here Turner turns "rationality" into "justification" like ancient people 
justified lightning and the thunder as some god's anger. I don't say that 
the god-based explanations abruptly stopped with the Greeks or the 
rational - natural - began, but it was the turning point and it's not just 
the MOQ that says that rationality was born there and then.    

> The relationships which justify intellectual formulations are those of
> valid inference, algebra, and geometric axioms, which were all defined
> for the first time in China (Mohism, Jiuzhang suanshu), India
> (Nyaya-darshana, Aryabhata) and Greece (Aristotle, Euclid, Diophantus)
> somewhere between 4th Century BC - 2nd Century AD. 

What he says here I need help to interpret

> As far as the west is concerned, this fits with your requirement that
> the intellectual level started in ancient Greece but has the benefit
> of allowing for an eastern intellectual level which has followed a
> different path yet still shares the rationality common to both.  It
> also avoids this nonsense about the MOQ having "an intellectual shell
> whilst it is alive in another level" and other attempts to have your
> (fudge) cake and eat it.

But here he again turns a staunch SOList and even attributes the 
Greek S/O rational aspect to the "Oriental Intellect" and thus goes 
against Pirsig's "non-S/O Oriental Intellect". No wonder Paul left the 
MD, he had started to go against his pupil DMB and did not want to 
throw spanners in his works. 

Bodvar 









> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Matt Kundert
> <pirsigaffliction at hotmail.com > wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hey John,
> >
> > I was curious: the original post in this thread had the
> > excavation of a dialogue between Paul and Bo, of which I
> > think I was mentioned.  Where was that from?
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > p.s.  Bo's response about the "Kafkaesque farce" of most of
> > all of his interlocutors being unable to understand him just
> > confirms my feeling that _nobody_ has yet to understand
> > through and through what Bo is talking about--even people
> > who like his ideas, and wish to use them--but this is due
> > almost entirely to the conflicting signals Bo gives off
> > constantly.  If there is a coherent vision of philosophy,
> > which I do think there quite possibly might be, it is trapped
> > in Bo's head (and likely in his mother-tongue), because
> > what spills out in writing is nearly impossible to thread all
> > together, from beginning to end (the megalomania not
> > helping much, though I certainly can't cast the first stone).
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from
> > your inbox.
> >
> > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMT
> > AGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo,
> > Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> 
>