[MD] William James a wrong track..

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Mati

March 14. you said: 

First, you know well that  emotion as something isn't part of MOQ's 
catechism, it was my list of "expressions" 

Interaction - Sensation - Emotion - Reason 

> Perhaps this is one of those semantic issues.  What I consider is fact
> that there are behaviors such as grieving a loss which is shared at
> both the social and biological level.  A better behavior to more
> precisely illustrate the point is fear. It is a biological response to
> the environment as part of the fight or flight response.  Both animal
> and human do is exhibit it in the same manner.  What is different is
> our ability to reflect and seek out the meaning of such experience, and
> in doing so can preservative on the experience and fear things that are
> not real such as ghosts under the bed. 

Right, the purely biological beings (animals) and the biological part of 
humans has this response. The perception  of danger releases 
adrenalin which causes super-alerted senses (dilated eyes and 
nostrils) and pounding heart. But is this fear? The kind Edgar Allan 
Poes meant when he said "I'll show you fear"? IMO no, fear paralyzes, 
there's no way of escaping ghosts ;-)     

>The social level with the behaviors
> functions of responses, was able to manipulate those functions for its own
> purpose.  Again it might be a matter of semantics but there are behaviors
> that are used in paraelle for the purposes of each respective level.  It
> seem clear to me than animal, though they are social creatures by
> describing various behavior, they in fact do not function/live by social
> values of the social level.

Agree, "society" is biology raised to a new "power" where for instance 
the said biological alertedness  is refined into fear, terror or the 
lingering kind called "anxiety". And right, the social level is solely 
human, perhaps it was the big neocortex brain which was the 
biological building block that DQ used for the social edifice. 
 
> I believe that I was able to find a biological cue that started a
> series of emotions.  I remember when I was able to get through the
> entire talk I was practicing in the car.  I was thinking to myself,
> gee I got through the speech without losing it, hmmm... what does that
> mean? Am I grieving him any less?  No, it was important for me to share my
> story about him, and I figured out how. Though I think that animal time
> for grieving is less both in time and meaning I think, I think the
> biological purpose was to deal with the stress of loss.
 
Wavedave referred to some scientific article about facial expressions 
triggering emotions (in the face's owner that is) but very tentatively: 
Are smiles and facial contortions connected with crying really biology? 
What is true biology must have been present BEFORE the social 
levels, and smiles and crying is not known among animals, so that 
these may really be "social". There's no mind/matter distinction 
(outside intellect) so emotions need not be  what SOM calls "mental".

> Mati: First "objective understaning", hmmm... no.  Emotions existed
> long before SOM.  And I would suggest before the social level as well.
>  Depression is an emotional state that is treated by various drugs.

Yes, material substances alter moods (mind) and mind alter substance 
(move bodies around) This is SOM's monster-platypus because - 
according to it -  matter cannot interfere with mind and vice versa, 
these are two separate worlds with no "interface". The MOQ however 
has no mind/matter schism (outside intellect) thus "depression" is an 
intellectual diagnosis meaning illness of the mind. Medical drugs, 
electro-shock and other therapies are all haphazard discoveries, 
science is clueless why it works and will remain so till MOQ comes.       

> It has been linked to various bio chemical imbalances. No matter how
> you try to cheer up a depressed person they are still depressed.  In
> the good ole days people would suggest depress people were possess by the
> devil or other crazy ideas. That was how depression was defined socially. 
> Our "objective understanding" through intellect help use understand the
> biological functions and creates Prozac to address it.

Right, in ancient times  the explanation (of abnormal behavior) was 
social - religious - about possessed by spirits and such,  but now we 
are in the middle of LILA's about insanity and Pirsig's resentment is not 
directed at the social leve's immune system - the police - but at 
intellect's psychiatry,  and again we she that "intellect" means the 
objective approach, to be mentally ill is is to have lost the OBJECTIVE 
view of reality ..... noting about having stopped to manipulate symbols 
and such nonsense. !    

And this is all I can manage.

Bodvar