[MD] Hoy stoves and those who sit on them

[John Carl]

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 2:13 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> On Mar 19, 2010, at 4:40 PM, John Carl wrote:
>
> > interesting question, Marsha,
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 9:49 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hello John,
> >>
> >> How would you break this down to address: the experiencer, the
> experience
> >> and
> >> the experienced?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > because undoubtedly they are descriptions of the same thing, the event,
> the
> > experience, no?
>
> They are not the same in the conventional use of English.  _I am seeing a
> tree._
> 'I' is the seer.  The experience is seeing.  The tree is the seen.
>  Experience has
> become a trinity.  What I have been saying is that only the seeing is a
> fact in
> that moment.  The seer, 'I' , and the seen, 'tree' are surmised from the
> experience
> of seeing.  They are built from patterns, no?
>
>

I agree the tree, the I, and this act of seeing are built from patterns,
yes.

But I cannot 'see' how handing the crown of significance to any one part of
the trinity of experience is better in any way.  All three legs of the
tripod depend upon the others to avoid toppling.

"The seeing" is not a fact if it's a hallucination

The seer is not a fact if there is no seeing.

The seen is not a fact if either the seer or the seeing disappears from
view,

Therefore, they are the three, interdependent in order for experience to
occur.




>
> There are grammatical rules, dictionaries and social training for
> interpreting the
> words we use, no?
>
>
yes!  Which influences the conceptual frameworks of meaning we build.

I agree completely.


>
> >
> >
> > but to address the experience of the hot stove, it depends.  It can be
> good,
> > or it can be bad.  When a child learns to listen carefully to its
> mother's
> > warnings, that is an overall good.  If the child is so badly injured that
> > she dies, it's an overall bad.
>
> Judgements based on individual static pattern histories and dynamic
> context.
> I've always wondered if RMP would say there is a difference between the
> value/experience and the judgements made subsequent to the experience.
> I would think there is a big difference, no?
>
>

But as Ham points out, without the judgement there can be no valuation of
the event.  However he takes then the judger as absolute whereas I see it as
none of the three legs of the tripod can be absolute - you need a subject,
an object and a valuation all at once or there is no experience.


>
> >
> > Thus the value or Quality of the event is not in the immediate,
> > experience, but in the overall context - an interpretation between the
> > subject and object AND some third overarching principle of valuation.
> > Interpretation is triadic in nature and thus more inherently stable than
> > the diadic relationship of S/O.
> >
> > As you know,
>
> I know Absolutely nothing, how about you?
>
> Marsha
>
>

I thought there were no absolutes. :-)


John




>
>
>
> >
> > John
>
> >> Marsha
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 19, 2010, at 11:41 AM, John Carl wrote:
> >>
> >>> The hot stove method of truth transferal is probably the oldest and
> most
> >>> common experience in human history.  It goes like this,  the infant
> >> wanders
> >>> near the hot stove and its mother warns it "Don't go near the stove,
> >> Johnny,
> >>> you'll get burned".
> >>>
> >>> Almost inevitably though, Johhny, out of accident or curiousity touches
> >> the
> >>> hot stove and mother goes "see? I told you so."
> >>>
> >>> Even though mothers are being protective in this situation, you can
> hear
> >> a
> >>> little satisfaction in their tones of comfort.  Sometimes laughter
> hidden
> >> in
> >>> their words - their warnings and admonitions have been empirically
> >> proven,
> >>> Their truth, transferred.  I've seen the drama enacted enough times to
> >>> understand the pattern, and if mommy was really concerned with
> preventing
> >>> the hot stove reaction, there'd be some kind of fence around the stove.
> >>>
> >>> In some homes, there are such fences,
> >>>
> >>> Those kids grow up rebellious usually.
> >>>
> >>> Other homes, nothing is said at all about the danger of the stove and
> the
> >>> child is left to its own stumbling explorations to figure out
> >>> which parts of reality is hot, which is not.
> >>>
> >>> Those kids grow up cautious.
> >>>
> >>> Other houses, kids are whipped for touching hot stoves.
> >>>
> >>> Those kids grow up self-hating, self-destructive and prone to
> >>> self-mutilation.
> >>>
> >>> And in every single case, any hot stove experience in the future is
> going
> >> to
> >>> be interpreted in the light of past experience, and the personality
> >>> development that's occurred so far.  Every hot stove experience is
> >> unique,
> >>> because every person experiencing the stove is unique, with a
> >> predisposed,
> >>> preprogrammed reaction and interpretation of the experience.  The bare
> >>> empirical facts of metal and flesh can be identical, but the experience
> >> is
> >>> not of empirical facts.  The experience is of empirical facts being
> >>> interpreted by a unique individual, every time generating a unique
> >>> experience.   There is nothing pure or immediate to any of this.  It's
> >> all a
> >>> vastly complicated interpretive dance, dependent upon so many factors
> >> that
> >>> are impossible to isolate but one thing is certain beyond argument -
> >> without
> >>> an experiencer, there is no experience,
> >>>
> >>> And without a social process of experiencer  creation, there is no
> >>> experiencer.
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